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Discussion Starter #1
I don't yet fully understand TS so I'll pose the question here.

Looking to run 4 12's for a nice SQL setup. Dual purpose sub section. Nice blend with front stage (HAT Legatia 3 way) when in normal mode (probably just 1 12 to blend with front stage) but when in stupid mode, would like to unleash the fury of 4-12's each powered by it's own PPI A600.2.

I already own 3- 12W7's (1 is blown) and have a shot at picking up a 4th for $300. Trying to decide if I should repair a blown 12W7 and pick up and additional 12W7 to make it a total of 4, or dump the 12W7's and buy 4 of these.

Focus is SQL. Limited Cash and limited Space is also a concern which has me leaning toward these..

I know these are a different animal altogether (SQ oriented sub) but could 4 of these match the performance of 4-12W7's?

Pros and cons of each?

From my pair of 12W7's in a large sealed enclosure, I like the low end extension that I get, I also like the over the top output when I unleash their full potential. What I don't like is the response of the 12W7's. A bit sluggish perhaps? I don't like the way they sound when turned way back to blend with front stage. A bit sloppy, seem to get in the way of SQ. I know there are a lot of variables that could be causing this, so let's just imagine 4 of each in a perfect world A/B comparison.

Pros and cons of each? The responses I am hoping to get will help decide the outcome of this quandary I am faced with. Do I dump the JL's and buy Diyma, or repair the blown JL, pick up the 4th and call it a day?

I already know that I can sell the 12W7's I own and grab 4 of these. A move I need a bit of encouragement to make. I don't want any regrets in the end.

What's the verdict fellas? Don't hold back!!
 

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the w7's are extremely low distortion subs. the sluggishness you describe is a bloated low end that needs to be eq'd out.
 

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W7's are mean, but not the most accurate in my limited experience with them.

Dan
tuning/setup.

OP, let me leave you with some info from the man that designed the DIYMA (search W7* and npdang in the user field for more)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/567784-post17.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2578-post35.html

I can only speak to the DIYMA out of all respect, and I'll say that the design was to provide the lowest possible distortion and best linearity possible within what I would consider to be a reasonable listening volume.
.....
This is where I believe the DIYMA comes in, with a low inductance motor, stiff/light alum. cone, lower thermal compression, and almost perfectly flat bl/cms curves... Not to compete output wise with the W7's of the world, but to provide additional refinement to already excellent designs available.
Now if you need a high spl sub with low distortion, some good choices are Jl w7, Adire Brahma, Re XXX, AA Avalanche, etc. For people who like to bump, but don't like the sound of their sub overloading.
 

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You could've stopped with SQL. The W7's are going to be the better choice for your intended application.
 

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the w7's are extremely low distortion subs. the sluggishness you describe is a bloated low end that needs to be eq'd out.

The Mag in Zach's xB had that same sound. It's not wrong, and neither is the W7, but even 4 R12s isn't going to give you the output of even 2 W7s.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
tuning/setup.

OP, let me leave you with some info from the man that designed the DIYMA (search W7* and npdang in the user field for more)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/567784-post17.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2578-post35.html
These answers help matters, thank you very much. I still have decisions to make.

I've never heard 4 W7's at full tilt, I have a pair that give me almost what I am looking for in terms of sheer output.. almost. I was looking to expand on my sub section to achieve the sheer output that I seek. If 2 W7's almost do the trick, I thought adding a 3rd and possibly 4th might solidify my goal.

I guess when I was informed of the Diyma clearance, I was hoping that 4 Diyma 12's would get me right where I want to be (when in stupid mode) while providing more of a listening experience when back in "Reference" mode. I think I was lured by the quickness and accuracy that the Dima sub supposedly offers (not to mention the rock bottom price!) I also thought that using 4 of them might get me to an output level that I might be pleased with when in stupid mode (not to say that I was hoping they would match the output of the W7's at full tilt)

I do enjoy the solid low end thump that the W7 provides especially at high output levels. I guess it's safe to say that the Diyma won't match that, I didn't think they would (was hoping they could come close)

Again, I have never heard 4 12W7's pushed to their limit, but the pair I have almost make the cut in terms of what I expect to hear when driven hard.
Just that I don't like them when listening to most music, wanted something that is a bit more responsive at moderate levels where it matters most.

From what I've read, the Diymas are a sub that are tough to beat in terms of SQ at moderate levels. Is it safe to say that they can outperform the JL's in SQ when operating within their parameters?

Maybe I'll just go for the Diyma 12's. I'm not looking to win SPL contests, (not to mention the fact that I've heard 4 OS Kicker CVR 12's produce more output than I would ever need) Perhaps an additional benefit of the Diyma 12's would be the optimal 4 ohm match for the bridged PPI arts? (4 ohms per bridged amp vs 3 ohm)

OK, there it is.. There's the question!! (Please forgive me, I often think aloud.. Type aloud?)

In an A/B comparison for each sub, with space limitations (smallish enclosures for each sub, about 1 CF per) which would make the best use of the available power, 1 PPI A600.2 per sub?

Also, when operating within their parameters, could the Diyma subs provide low end extension similar to that of the of the 12W7's?

Summary. For an SQL system with emphasis on the SQ portion of it..

A) 2- JL Audio 12W7's almost give me the sheer total output I desire when in stupid mode, a 3rd JL will almost certainly do it. I am not looking to win SPL contests, I have heard 4 OS Kicker CVR 12's produce more than enough output to keep me happy for a very long time. Perhaps 4 Diyma 12's can get me where I want to be??
B) Limited funds are a concern. I could sell the pair of JL's and purchase 4 of the Diymas, vs shell out an additional $600+ for the 3rd and 4th JL, would still leave me with 4 preowned JL's and no warranty.
C) Was hoping for an improved listening experience in SQ mode, subs to blend nicely with a HAT Legatia 3 way front stage (L6, L4, L1V2) The JL's seem to lack quick response in SQ mode (I am aware that could be attributed to improper tuning)
D) Trunk room and amplifier selection are limitations. I was considering 4) A600.2's for sub duty, keeping the PPI theme throughout the system (all PPI for 4 way system) I have available a max area of 4.5 CF (sealed, before subs) I think that alone negates the idea of running a 4th JL even if I decided to.

I guess what I am getting at is the fact that I may have already made up my mind with regard to purchasing the 4 Diyma 12's. I guess I just need several opinions specific to my situation, opinions that may or may not persuade me to "pull the trigger" or help to "push me out of the nest" on the Diymas. I am not expecting "King Kong in my trunk" but definitely expect a small thunder storm followed by smooth listening..

Thanks for sorting through the Jibberish..
 

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Sorry lust4sound, I don't mean you any disrespect but...Give it up dude! Anyone that is considering 4 12W7's should not ever let the thought of running a DIYMA 12 or two, or three, or four, or five.....etc. It is JUST not the sub for you. The DIYMA 12 may look the part with tht HUGE ASS motor but that same motor can overdrive the super light cone if a basshead is at the helm with a ton of power on tap (4 PPI A600.2 = 2400 watts!). Continue on with your W7 extreme bass desires instead. The W7 was designed as a SQ sub as well but it has some serious output that was a result of the design.

O.T.O.H., the DIYMA is the ticket if you want a moderate to loud sub that dissapears and brings your focus back to the music.....and not the sub! There is really no need to compare the two. Given, the price of the W7 vs. the low price of the DIYMA 12 and the availability of so many other moderately prices yet capable subs on the market makes it a moot point to compare the W7 to much cheaper subs. Also, some like the W7 sound some don't.....some like the W6 better for SQ????

One has to REALLY want a W7 to pay the high price (One can get loud clean bass for less). In contrast, one has to really want a moderate SQ sub to consider the DIYMA 12. However, one can find the best of both worlds somewhere in the middle at a price that sits right there in the middle as well.

And as far as sloppy sounding bass....the subs in question measure VERY well and have VERY low distortion. If the bass is sounding muddy there are other factors that are probably not the fault of the sub itself. Consider power, phase, EQ, blending, transfer function, enclosure, midbass, dampening, etc. as factors. When you start out with a better than average product and get lower than average results....chances are it is not the product. There is NO perfect world in car audio....car audio needs to be tuned to sound good....even when using quality equipment.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Sorry lust4sound, I don't mean you any disrespect but...Give it up dude! Anyone that is considering 4 12W7's should not ever let the thought of running a DIYMA 12 or two, or three, or four, or five.....etc. It is JUST not the sub for you. The DIYMA 12 may look the part with tht HUGE ASS motor but that same motor can overdrive the super light cone if a basshead is at the helm with a ton of power on tap. Continue on with your W7 extreme bass desires instead. The W7 was designed as a SQ sub as well but it has some serious output as well.

O.T.O.H., the DIYMA is the ticket if you want a moderate to loud sub that dissapears and brings your focus back to the music.....and not the sub! There is really no need to compair the two. Given, the price of the W7 vs. the low price of the DIYMA 12 and the availability of so many other moderately prices yet capable subs on the market makes it a moot point to compare the W7 to much cheaper subs. Also, some like the W7 sound some don't.....some like the W6 better for SQ????

One has to REALLY want a W7 to pay the high price. In contrast, one has to really want a moderate SQ sub to consider the DIYMA 12. However, one can find the best of both worlds somewhere in the middle at a price that sits right there in the middle as well.
No offense taken. I am not trying to compare a 12W7 to a Diyma 12. Rather, given my goals, would the Diymas be a tremendous compromise to the 12W7's?

I am not by any means a complete basshead, but I do enjoy at times the serious output that sub heavy systems afford..

I am trying to accomplish a "best of both worlds" type system. I want a system that put's me in a live venue when need be, while also having the capability to reproduce those electronic low end frequencies found only in recordings such as Bass Mekanik, and that with moderate success.

If the Diyma 12 is that far off the mark (given my expectations) then maybe I'll just stick with what I have..
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The Mag in Zach's xB had that same sound. It's not wrong, and neither is the W7, but even 4 R12s isn't going to give you the output of even 2 W7s.
I missed that, would have saved me the trouble of typing both above responses.

4- Diyma 12's wont match the output of 2-12W7's? If this is true then you just saved me from making a regrettable mistake. This is why I confide in you fellas!

Does everyone agree? 4- Diyma 12's won't match the output of 2-12W7's? If this is true, I'll stick with what I have..

Thanks.
 

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Honestly, I'd look at stepping up to an 8 (sls comes to mind) and a system retune before buying more subs. The 8's should give you more tuning options as far as blending the bass and midbass,allowing you to play louder while maintaining sq. I figure you're not that far away from the output you want so no sense in adding more weight and taxing your system any further.

From there, I'd look at adding more power.
 

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I missed that, would have saved me the trouble of typing both above responses.

4- Diyma 12's wont match the output of 2-12W7's? If this is true then you just saved me from making a regrettable mistake. This is why I confide in you fellas!

Does everyone agree? 4- Diyma 12's won't match the output of 2-12W7's? If this is true, I'll stick with what I have..

Thanks.
I think that Paul is correct with his statement. 2 12W7's would trump 4 R12's in sheer output.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Honestly, I'd look at stepping up to an 8 (sls comes to mind) and a system retune before buying more subs. The 8's should give you more tuning options as far as blending the bass and midbass,allowing you to play louder while maintaining sq. I figure you're not that far away from the output you want so no sense in adding more weight and taxing your system any further.

From there, I'd look at adding more power.
My last setup was the 2 12W7's in a large sealed enclosure that was 4.50 CF before subs (plus or minus .25) spare tire well make it difficult to get exact measure. Could that be part of why I wasn't getting a good response for normal listening? Too large an enclosure?

I was temporarily using a Fosgate T30001BD to power the 12W7's, this was not only too much power for the pair of 12's, but it wouldn't allow for use of the 3rd as the Fosgate is barely capable of making the cut into a 1 ohm load, 3 JL's would have shown it a load which several sources indicated was a no go.

I am not an advocate of the Fosgate BD amps (hate them in fact) but I found it cheap, used it 3 weeks then I sold it, in the hopes of picking up A/B amps in multiples to make similar power.

Sounded OK at serious output levels but left me wanting to turn it off during normal listening. At that time, I was using dual Polk 6.5's per door for midbass (mini subs from their 2 way bookshelf speakers)

For Hip Hop, RnB or Electronic, the sub section was fine. But for Blues, Jazz, especially Hard Rock, Metal, the sub section seemed to muddy the front stage no matter what I did. For that type of music, the front stage sounded best with the sub section seriously attenuated or off.. (The only time the sub section helped is when it was practically off, minimal output, just enough to reinforce low end otherwise the front stage would get muddled, guitars would sound harsh, tinny, regardless of subwoofer phase)

Since then I have not only picked up a set of HATs for front stage (waiting to install) but I am also trying to make the switch from D class to A/B for subs.

Never considered multiple 8's. 10's were a thought for quicker response, but then the Diyma 12 deal came along. The combination of overbuilt mag with the superlight alum cone, plus the low cost were the only reasons I was considering the switch to Diymas. (I thought this was a once in a lifetime super deal on serious subs worth much more than the clearance price, an answer to my quandary) Again, I don't know squat about TS which is why I posed the question here..
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks for all the 411.

I think I will stick to the JL's, try different tuning, hopefully adding the 3rd to the same airspace occupied by the pair in combination with switching to A/B power and some EQing will give me my best of both worlds expectations..

You fellas rock!!
 

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I hope that you have one hell of an electrical system in that car! Best of luck man.
 

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My last setup was the 2 12W7's in a large sealed enclosure that was 4.50 CF before subs (plus or minus .25) spare tire well make it difficult to get exact measure. Could that be part of why I wasn't getting a good response for normal listening? Too large an enclosure?

I was temporarily using a Fosgate T30001BD to power the 12W7's, this was not only too much power for the pair of 12's, but it wouldn't allow for use of the 3rd as the Fosgate is barely capable of making the cut into a 1 ohm load, 3 JL's would have shown it a load which several sources indicated was a no go.

I am not an advocate of the Fosgate BD amps (hate them in fact) but I found it cheap, used it 3 weeks then I sold it, in the hopes of picking up A/B amps in multiples to make similar power.

Sounded OK at serious output levels but left me wanting to turn it off during normal listening. At that time, I was using dual Polk 6.5's per door for midbass (mini subs from their 2 way bookshelf speakers)

For Hip Hop, RnB or Electronic, the sub section was fine. But for Blues, Jazz, especially Hard Rock, Metal, the sub section seemed to muddy the front stage no matter what I did. For that type of music, the front stage sounded best with the sub section seriously attenuated or off.. (The only time the sub section helped is when it was practically off, minimal output, just enough to reinforce low end otherwise the front stage would get muddled, guitars would sound harsh, tinny, regardless of subwoofer phase)

Since then I have not only picked up a set of HATs for front stage (waiting to install) but I am also trying to make the switch from D class to A/B for subs.

Never considered multiple 8's. 10's were a thought for quicker response, but then the Diyma 12 deal came along. The combination of overbuilt mag with the superlight alum cone, plus the low cost were the only reasons I was considering the switch to Diymas. (I thought this was a once in a lifetime super deal on serious subs worth much more than the clearance price, an answer to my quandary) Again, I don't know squat about TS which is why I posed the question here..
There's no reason why w7's shouldn't have been able to handle the RF. I'd think that was a gain structure-issue.

Regardless of what midbass you use, you'll be hard pressed to find any midbass that would keep up with w7's at output levels approaching full tilt. Your subs were just outrunning the front stage. Not much you can do about that. Again, properly setting your gains may help some.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
There's no reason why w7's shouldn't have been able to handle the RF. I'd think that was a gain structure-issue.

Regardless of what midbass you use, you'll be hard pressed to find any midbass that would keep up with w7's at output levels approaching full tilt. Your subs were just outrunning the front stage. Not much you can do about that. Again, properly setting your gains may help some.
Don't forget to try more power... That might take care of your "sluggish" sound at low volume

Kelvin
Kelvin, I had plenty of power, enough power to destroy the 12W7's almost 3000 RMS.

Bass, I was in no way trying to match full tilt output with my front stage..

At the time, I had dual Polk 6.5's iin each door. 8 Ohms drivers, rated at 100 RMS each, with a Mmats amp showing them 300 rms per side.. 4- 6.5" mini subs rated to handle 100 watts each being driven by 300 watts. I had Boston Pro 5.25's for midrange seeing 160 watts each, and a pair of Mmats Pro Audio large format tweets designed to play down to 3.5K with 100 watts power handling being powered by 160 watts rms.

Now the 2 JL's were tuned from 63HZ and down with a 12DB slope. The 4 Polk 6.5's were tuned from 63HZ (12 DB slope) to 200HZ 24 DB slope. The Bostom Pros where 200 HZ 18 DB slope to 3.5 12 DB etc etc..

Gains set properly on all amps, as a matter of fact, the Fosgate gain was as close to it's lowest possible setting, a tad shy of 1/4 turn from bottom, barely turned up... The subs immediately overwhelmed the entire system.

With sub level control on the HU set to 0, I still had to go into the XO section of the HU and lower the sub output to match front stage.(This to avoid going into my trunk and turning the sub amp gain all the way back to 0.) Other wise it would overwhelm.

Now with the sub amp gain still near 0 but the sub level turned up on the HU, tracks that contain 30HZ and lower in the Bass Mekanik CD had the subs hit their mechanical limits very easily with this amp, it was that potent.. Of course this was only with Bass Mekanik or Busta rhymes (that CD will destroy your speakers, I threw it out my window while driving, bastard CD)

Now my front stage had some serious kick to it. In and of itself, I could dial the midbass drivers down to 40HZ and get usable response.. Punchy snappy response, fast attack and nice reproduction of kick drum, snare drum etc (you could hear the beater hitting the skin) This from sub par drivers and what I believe to be less than optimal SQ amps (Mmats SQ series)

Now I could blend the subs with my front stage, they would disappear into oblivion, but they had to be turned back so low, and the blend I felt wasn't ideal.. The midbass had authority while the subs sort of just filled the interior with pressure.. Cabin gain me things? Transfer function? Anyway, for most music, it almost sounded better with subs off or damn near it...

Now that I know it is not the subs fault, that they are indeed excellent SQ subs with output to boot, I will pick up a 4th tomorrow (the blown one will cost more to fix.) I can't use 4, that's out of the question, but I think 3 with enough power should get me the sheer output I seek.. As for front stage blending, I think perhaps EQing and perhaps adding the 3rd sub to an enclosure that is so large, it's ideal for 3 as opposed to 2, might get me into more suitable conditions for normal listening.

I have the HATS now, will add a 3rd JL, will power each with an A600.2. If those don't do it for me, I will try to get hold of 3 SS Ref amps.. If that doesn't do it, Sundown SAZ3000D..
 
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