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Finally, I finished my 1st kick panel on my car.
The mid-range driver is Accuton C90-6-079.
The mid-bass driver is AT FlexUnits 8"

Sounds great, much more better than any other midrange drivers that I have ever heard before.

Sound stage is not a big problem anymore for placement on kick panel.

Eventhough there are many other car audio enthusiasts in Indonesia disagree with kick panel placement.

But the reality shows the different.
I heard the sound stage as high as my eyes level.

Thank you for your advise, friends.
 

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Need some opinions?

Have some mb-quart speaks.

A 5 in midbass? that was paired with a tweeter and passive cross.

A pair of 6 1/2 midrange?

I assume the 2 way 5 in is a midbass it's a dwf-130, tweet is rtc 190.Can't find info on google, lost docs. I also assume the 6 1/2 is a midrange.

I want it all up front, nothing in back.

I was thinking tweets on-axis on top of dash for sure.

One of the woofers in a kick and one in the door.

Not sure if the 6.5 or the 5 in should go in the kick?

Any opinions for me?

Also if the kicks are beamed from the left to right aren't the channels going to get mixed up?
Thanks.
 

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Hate to bring this back up, but was very informative and believe others will enjoy it. I've been thinking out a future setup and these quotes lead to my question below...

This thread was a great read. Let me see if I have the general consensus of a compromise for kick panel installation. Do the mid/mid bass (provided you can get low end extension in location) in the kick panels to optimize path lengths and minimize hard to treat reflections. (I would think that one would at least want to ad a under dash panel to close off the cavity) The kicks are the best spot for midrange frequencies. Mount tweets up high with something that will play fairly low, say a Morel Supremo Piccolo or ScanSpeak D2904/6000??? The higher frequencies will cue for stage height, but you have to deal with window/dash reflections.

Would delaying the right tweet to match the right mid, and left tweet to match the left mid then help with a 2 seat set up with this configuration. I would think it would.


jbholsters that sounds good ;)
So this mean that it is safe to use an amplifier (Not sure if it can be a problem, but highest it can cross is 5Khz(JL audio 300/2 with X10 setting enabled))ran with the mid range channels on the head unit (Eclipse CD7000) for a 2 seat 3 Way setup (Mid bass ( Peerless 8" XLS) on door, mid range (Unsure)on kicks, and tweeters (Unsure) on pillars)? Reason I ask is because I was under the impression that a mid range/tweeter should be as close as possible and do to the lack of processor would like to make sure this will work. Thanks
 

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After reading the whole thing I decided to give it a try and place my DLS UR 2.5 down there where the kicks are. Will post some pictures after.
 

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They don't have to be intrusive. I gained a little space. I actually had good stage height when passive with the Dyn 342 set. A little better with the MS8 and I swear even better with the 430s but maybe that's my imagination. I definitely like the midrange in the kicks.



 

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Greets again.
As I said few posts ago I decided to put the mids in the kicks and this is what I made today - I used a rain pipe element which fit nicely my DLS UR 2.5. They are mounted with some L-shaped metal plates and sprayed in black mat. I haven't tried them yet due to some cable issues, but I'm happy with the final result.



 

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I learned this from one of the top installers in the world, a good buddy of mine.

1) Put your front seats where you intend to either drive the car or where you will have them if you plan to compete, this is very very important. I am talking about fore and aft, height, seat back tilt angle. If not competing then where you will drive the car at and the passenger side the same.
If you are competing in car audio comps, then all the way back and low but even with the passenger side for height, lean the seats back a bit but not real far to make them uncomfortable.

2) Sit in your seat as you would driving or listening as per above, make sure you are correctly placed, if you tend to drive leaning way forward like some do, you should adjust how you sit, better for your posture anyway, lol, lean back in the seat:)

(here is an additional hint, almost all will do better if the seats are lowered, leaned back quite a bit, etc. but in my Tacoma I had to raise the seats, go figure;)

3) Have somebody you trust to do this correctly, critically important. Roll the windows up, have them look very very carefully at where the entrance to your eardrum is on your window side ear, left ear, mark it on the window or on the pillar with a small spot of tape.

4) Move to the other front seat and do the same except of course on the right ear this time.

5) Ok to get out of the car now:) Measure 5" forward and 1.5" down from the spot marked for your ear entrance points on each side of the car, should be two marks on the car now, one for your ears and one forward and down as above.

6) Build some temp baffles for the speakers or the ones you will use, what I do. Have the tweeters mounted very low and to the door side of the baffle, the woofers go furthest forward and low as well.

7) Aim the woofers(midbasses) exactly at the forward and down spot on the glass you marked.
This is the sweet spot, instead of fighting the glass reflections you are using them to your advantage. The right speaker will reflect off the left glass into your left ear and help equalize the sound you hear from both speakers, seems odd but it works, exceptionally well. I beat a prior world champ twice in two months, two seperate installs in my truck and two totally seperate comp installs in his truck and a customers truck using these methods of alignment.

8)Take a kitchen towel and put it behind the baffels can cover the back of the speakers, then do some serious listening tests to see if you need to align them differently but this should be pretty darn accurate.

9) Be very carefull when glassing the kicks as the glass can pull them out of alignment when drying as tends to shrink so mount the baffles very well before glassing.

10) Wire the midbass on the passenger out of phase with the drivers side midbass, you may lose some midbass output but the sub can help make up for that quite well when tuned properly, better yet to have some midbasses in the doors. Try all the phasing setups you can, sometimes the drivers side is best, sometimes but not often, both in phase works)


For those not building kicks here is a simple install plan that works quite well, has been used alot in competion cars.

1) use the door locations for the midbasses, both in phase.
2) tweeters in the A pillars firing directly at each other, as wide apart as possible, both at the same exact height and about 2" above the highest point on the dash. Wire both tweeters out of phase(pos and neg wires reversed but this may have to be reconsideded depending on the midbass wiring, take your timem and try them all! Make sure to try many different aim points as well.
3) Use a dash mat, fugly but they work.

In fact, a dash mat will improve just about any install ever done, including kick panels, have one in my truck, been there for years:)"

I have done this in several cars and trucks over the years and always with great results.

Rick
Good info...wish my console didn't block the whole path...seriously the whole freaking path!
 

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Good info...wish my console didn't block the whole path...seriously the whole freaking path!
When placing Mids in kick area the first requirement is to have a clear visual to each driver, in other words a clear path from left ear to left speaker, right ear to right speaker.

Then... as forward as possible!

and 3rd... as far apart from each other, more off-axis than on axis. (depends a little bit on speakers performance) for a 1 side system, you can play with angles to get both drivers have the same off-axis response.

Physical location of the drivers define your stage width and depth.

.*No mater what console is between speakers, the path is between your speakers to your ears!

.
I hope it helps I know it's confusing. But it works.
 

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I've re-read this thread a few times over the years, but I can't remember everything.... so I'll ask this question.

Can anyone comment on what changes you heard when you moved from mids in A-pillar install to mids in kickpanel install?

I'd like to change to a 6.5" midrange to gain impact/realism, while I currently use a 3" widebander I'm using in the pillars. But, I'm worried I'll lose some of that above the dash soundstage I've been spoiled by for the past 3 years.
 

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Can anyone comment on what changes you heard when you moved from mids in A-pillar install to mids in kickpanel install?

I'd like to change to a 6.5" midrange to gain impact/realism, while I currently use a 3" widebander I'm using in the pillars. But, I'm worried I'll lose some of that above the dash soundstage I've been spoiled by for the past 3 years.
Easy, also sending you a PM...

Stage gets wider, Mids in kick area are further from each other, versus Mids in a-pillars are closer to each other, stage is less wider. Also if you check your PLDs your depth may increase with the Mids in kick area.

You don't loose stage above dash.

D.
 

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I've re-read this thread a few times over the years, but I can't remember everything.... so I'll ask this question.

Can anyone comment on what changes you heard when you moved from mids in A-pillar install to mids in kickpanel install?

I'd like to change to a 6.5" midrange to gain impact/realism, while I currently use a 3" widebander I'm using in the pillars. But, I'm worried I'll lose some of that above the dash soundstage I've been spoiled by for the past 3 years.
Having a driver play most of the freq down by your feet will help you learn how to tune ;)
Phase is easier to discern when speakers are located low compared to up high IME. It's either right or wrong :mad:

Kelvin
 

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When placing Mids in kick area the first requirement is to have a clear visual to each driver, in other words a clear path from left ear to left speaker, right ear to right speaker.

Then... as forward as possible!

and 3rd... as far apart from each other, more off-axis than on axis. (depends a little bit on speakers performance) for a 1 side system, you can play with angles to get both drivers have the same off-axis response.

Physical location of the drivers define your stage width and depth.

.*No mater what console is between speakers, the path is between your speakers to your ears!

.
I hope it helps I know it's confusing. But it works.
Not confusing at all! It helps tremendously...I've read through your log a long time ago and was wondering if you still have your's set up the way your diagram shows? with the left mid angled towards you a little bit...So I am assuming it's still off axis a little bit?
 

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Having a driver play most of the freq down by your feet will help you learn how to tune ;)
Phase is easier to discern when speakers are located low compared to up high IME. It's either right or wrong :mad:

Kelvin
Can you describe what happens to the sound when you change the phase...I am not to the point in my install at all just yet...hopefully soon though!
 

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Not confusing at all! It helps tremendously...I've read through your log a long time ago and was wondering if you still have your's set up the way your diagram shows? with the left mid angled towards you a little bit...So I am assuming it's still off axis a little bit?
Yes I do, the idea is having the right mid in kick area sitting flat (aiming strait to the other Mid), so that mid is more on-axis towards you compare to the left Mid, then the left Mid aim slightly towards you to the point that both drivers look the same from your regular driving position, now both have the same aim angle at you.

In other words both Mids have the same off-axis response.

.Sent you a PM


Can you describe what happens to the sound when you change the phase...I am not to the point in my install at all just yet...hopefully soon though!
I can feel it more with subwoofer to Mid/bass and/or between MidBass. When you change the phase either the BASS increases or decreases.

.
 

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Can you describe what happens to the sound when you change the phase...I am not to the point in my install at all just yet...hopefully soon though!
Well, when speakers are out of phase, the sound is drawned to the speaker
When some freqs are out of phase, those freqs are drawned to the speaker

Having mids and tweets above the dash, you'll have the whole soundstage above the dash - even out of phase freqs. Phase at the Xover point is not as critical there (perfect is better of course)
Having mids down and tweets high, out of phase mid freqs will have your attention drawned to the speaker @ your feet. So you need your phase to be closer to perfect - timing and levels too - phase @ the Xover point is critical to get everything right.
Having both drivers below the dash (like in a horn setup), you need T/A, level, Xover and phase in order to have everything up on the dash.

That's why I feel that tuning is "easier" having drivers by your feet :) It's either right or wrong :mad:

Kelvin
 

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Well, when speakers are out of phase, the sound is drawned to the speaker
When some freqs are out of phase, those freqs are drawned to the speaker

Having mids and tweets above the dash, you'll have the whole soundstage above the dash - even out of phase freqs. Phase at the Xover point is not as critical there (perfect is better of course)
Having mids down and tweets high, out of phase mid freqs will have your attention drawned to the speaker @ your feet. So you need your phase to be closer to perfect - timing and levels too - phase @ the Xover point is critical to get everything right.
Having both drivers below the dash (like in a horn setup), you need T/A, level, Xover and phase in order to have everything up on the dash.

That's why I feel that tuning is "easier" having drivers by your feet :) It's either right or wrong :mad:

Kelvin

Kelvin , normally we share similar opinions but I have no idea what you just said above and it made no sense whatsoever

How does changing the phase of a driver , draw your attention to it more?
changing the phase typically makes the sound more diffuse, which would make it harder to detect the origin of sound.

and the horn part made no sense at all either...Horns under the dash function the way they do bc the dash becomes an extension of the horn and the sound travels up the dash. They need to be mounted as far away from you and not directly in front of you to function properly.

and drawned is not a word.;)
 

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Kelvin , normally we share similar opinions but I have no idea what you just said above and it made no sense whatsoever

How does changing the phase of a driver , draw your attention to it more?
changing the phase typically makes the sound more diffuse, which would make it harder to detect the origin of sound.

and the horn part made no sense at all either...Horns under the dash function the way they do bc the dash becomes an extension of the horn and the sound travels up the dash. They need to be mounted as far away from you and not directly in front of you to function properly. <-- that part I know :)

and drawned is not a word.;)
Guess I need to brush up my english a bit more :blush: lol

Re-read and it was making sense in my head. Let's say sound not centered instead of being "drawned" towards the speaker.

When trying to tune my horn system (for 2 years), I noticed that I could get an even soundstage from left to right but if phase and T/A wasn't spot on, some freqs would draw my attention towards the passenger's midrange.
Few years have gone and I now have my whole soundstage well above the dash and layered.
I have my horn's Xover higher than most too @ 1.6kHz 24dB/oct. So I know when transition from mid to horn is not correct...

True, it wasn't making any sense :p
Kelvin
 
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