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npdang said:
It's generally been my experience that kicks offer better tonal qualities than do dash mounted drivers. The fr deviations due to diffraction and obstruction can usually be overcome quite effectively with an eq, whereas it's much more difficult to correct tonal imbalances due to heavy reflections off the glass and dash.
I don't disagree. EQ can really open up the possibilities in terms of driver selection and installation location. By no means did I intend for my post to be a criticism against kicks in all situations, but I think it's important to point out that most people don't EQ (tsk tsk) for FR issues arising from installation or inherent to the driver itself. The obvious recommendation, then, is to add EQ. But it's not always within the person's budget or, for whatever reason, their design goal.

Anyway, my main point was to tout the virtues of a superior FR, regardless of how you achieve it. In some cases, a dash or upper door install is the better option for achieving that goal.
 

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werewolf said:
no fundamental disagreement Mark, but perhaps a counterpoint of sorts would be : show me the mounting location in a car that doesn't significantly alter the measured or specified frequency response of a driver? Don't like higher-frequency drivers down low because of blocking/diffraction, how about higher-frequency drivers mounted higher introducing nasty reflections? And which frequency response aberrations are easier to equalize (hint : don't waste too much time trying to invert a comb null)?

Know what I mean? Yes ... it's all a compromise, depending on your tastes and what is significant to you in stereo reproduction. To state that one choice is unequivocally bad for all tastes ... and all vehicles, as Wes points out ... is quite narrow-minded.

It's a valid point, though, that in the "con" category of kickpanel installations, we should add : significant fabrication work required to execute properly. I really suspect that this is often the most significant reason why kick locations are avoided.
Fair enough. I would argue, however, that the FR irregularities introduced by a kick panel installation (generally speaking, of course) tend to be greater than that of comb filtering and reflections and whatnot. Do I have any data to back this assertion up? None at all. ;)
 
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Discussion Starter #43
I think we agree Mark ... or pretty close anyway ;) And after re-reading my post, of course I didn't mean to suggest that you were narrow-minded! :)
 
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Discussion Starter #44
You know it's a fair starting point, I think, when designing a system to ask : what can be fixed electronically, and what needs to be addressed physically? What's in my budget for electronic compensation, and what's in my skill set for fabrication? And as I think we've all agreed, what's important to me in reproduction ... tonality, dynamics, staging, etc ?
 
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Discussion Starter #45
Well this thread kinda died, just before things got interesting ;) So let's spark things up a bit, shall we?

I'll start with a couple of common objections against kickpanel speaker locations, and provide some comments (hoepfully, thought-provoking) for each :

1. My ears are not at my ankles, why put speakers down there?

Several comments against this common objection:

- The objection fails by logical extension. If we only put speakers "where our ears are", we would all be listening to headphones only. In home audio, speakers are often placed (largely) in front of us ... and my ears are on the sides of my head, not the front.

- One may say, as a corollary to the objection ... "well, moving the speakers UP at least gets them closer to your ears." Agreed ... but the problem is, moving speakers closer to your ears is not, by any means, always a smart thing to do. In fact, maximizing pathlengths in the car (while minimizing pathlength differences) is almost always a good thing ... if you care about accurate spatial reproduction.

- The objection fails to recognize how we locate sound sources, and what location cues can ... and can't ... be fixed by aiming and electronic equalization (covered earlier).

2. I don't place speakers on the floor in home audio.

- No, you probably don't. But if you care about accurate spatial reproduction, you most likely maximize pathlengths while minimizing pathlength differences. And it just so happens, that optimizing these constraints ... in a car ... means kickpanel locations (in most vehicles).

- I listen (sometimes) to my beloved Martin Logan Electrostats at home. Does it make me a hypocrite if I don't listen to them in a car? Or ... just perhaps ... are the constraints in a vehicle sometimes a bit different than those in a home?

3. Legs get in the way of the sound.

- Yes they can ... depending on wavelengths, of course ... think diffraction. Remember ... no one is suggesting that all drivers necessarily belong in the kicks :) But the tradeoff in moving drivers up higher is introducing more nasty reflections ... under-dash areas can be treated more readily, to help tame reflections, than glass you must see through.

I think the real mesage of this thread (if i may ... hey i am the one who started it, ya know ;) ) is that car audio is all about compromise. There's no single best way to do anything. Optimization in the face of several variables ... often conflicting ... means compromise. The educated are better positioned to sort through the compromises than the opinionated. ;)
 

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Definentnly agree with compromises, on every level.

I'm still trying to get my 2-5khz area cleaned up, some music hurts, and others just seems to be highly lacking, i can't get it right.

But my image is very high, yet i can't even with EQ seem to figure out whats happening, and ways of correcting it, as EQ cuts only come back to bother me in later songs or instances......Especially upper electric guitar solo's and riffs.....

Just can't seem to chase it down, tweets in pillars offaxis, midranges in kicks offaxis.....just can't get it right.
 

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Well said mister big bad wolfman!!! I could not agree more.

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I recommend and have done a number of installs with pillar tweets and mids in the doors due to the compromises of budget constraints, time alloted, room to work with, etc, etc... and been happy with the somewhat limited results. BUT, if I had mids in the kicks, I would have tweeters there as well, as I do in my Tacoma which has a very small cabin and very short pathlenghts but I made it work wonderfully and without using TA(major band aid I always try to avoid by doing the best physical location I can first)

I have had full size tweeters and 7" midbasses in kicks in my Taco since 1989 or so, it can be done;)
-----------------

Rick
 

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werewolf said:
Case-in-point : consider that vertical cues don't begin until maybe 1~2kHz. How can the ear possibly localize a dedicated midbass driver (up to ~200Hz, for example), in the vertical plane? Simple answer : it can't. There's a "circle of confusion" regarding the midbass ... as long as a midbass driver is generating the same ITD's to your ears, one location can't be localized, or differentiated, from another. So why would a dedicated midbass need to be physically located in close proximity to a tweet? Perhaps to satisfy your eyes ... because your ears certainly can't tell.
This helped me more than anything on getting my sound stage the way I want it.(its not perfect, but the best its ever been)
I did some reading on this and other things you have written, and I must say its great.
In my two previous cars, I had very modified Q-Logics.......I was going to make custom kicks for the car I have now, but decided against it after reading some of your threads.
I went with 6 inch mids in the doors(which are all the way at the front bottom of the door) and .8 inch dome tweets in the A-pillar(3 inches above the highest point of the dash via suggestions from Rick ;) )
I have yet to do any eq work....just did a -6db gain control and it blends better than I could have hoped. Im sure it will only get better when I work with it more.

So big thanks to Werewolf and Raamaudio :)
 

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thats my debate right now, I can't make up my mind wheter to re do my kicks with the hiqophon 0w1-fs and try soem new angles for more height or jsut add the second tweet...

argghhhh
 
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Discussion Starter #50
... by the way, almost exactly none of this originated with me, of course. I've learned a lot from some of the world's best car audio minds :) A great reference is, of course, the AutoSound2000 Tech Briefs (I think that's the official name) from Clark/Navone ... where kickpanel locations were discussed in great detail, over a decade ago.
 

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werewolf said:
... by the way, almost exactly none of this originated with me, of course. I've learned a lot from some of the world's best car audio minds :) A great reference is, of course, the AutoSound2000 Tech Briefs (I think that's the official name) from Clark/Navone ... where kickpanel locations were discussed in great detail, over a decade ago.
but you know how to get everyone to understand the facts and theories :) I personally think that is genius!
can these articles and briefs still be found online anywhere?
 

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bdubs767 said:
thats my debate right now, I can't make up my mind wheter to re do my kicks with the hiqophon 0w1-fs and try soem new angles for more height or jsut add the second tweet...

argghhhh

is there anyway you could put one there to test it out before the full install?
 

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legend94 said:
is there anyway you could put one there to test it out before the full install?

yes nto the scan but another tweeter...but Im lazy lol and really want the ow1 lol

well see what wins lazy or wantign a good install

see car audio is all abotu give and take :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

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not at all. the AS2K stuff is pretty well written and easy to understand. i am not an engineer at all, but see audio very much as a hobby and as a way to get more insight into the world i live in. the tech briefs are invaluable and are a great read for even a complete novice. all you need is a tiny bit of patience and an open mind and they will help a lot in getting some grounding on what makes this stuff work. i still have all of mine from my original subscription more than 10 years later. good stuff! too bad they stopped publishing.
 

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yeh, i am switching to 4.5" revelators since my 7" ES-07's are way to big for kicks lol
 

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vactor said:
i am not an engineer at all, but see audio very much as a hobby and as a way to get more insight into the world i live in.
funny that you say that cause i am going to school to be an engineer. though with school, my job, and trying to finish my never ending install i dont think i would have time to read it :(
 

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i know it's been a loooong time but i just did something like this last weekend and then I saw this thread. i have a set of Dyn 340s with the mid and tweeter in the kicks and I've NEVER been happy with the top end. it had no sparkle unless i turned the tweets WAY up and then it was just poop. well i had a tweet go out and i'm waiting for the replacement. i've has a set of .75" CDT metal domes (more on those later) in the OEM sail panel positions in my Passat that i was going to use as accents to bring the stage up already in place but not wired so i disconnected the other good MD100 and wired the CDTs to the Dyn XO. WOW! I've always thought I didn't like metal domes but these kick the snot out of the MD100s in the kicks. other than them being to bright which I tamed a bit on the XO and turning the mid up (which was a mistake) and then using a shelving filter on the PPI DCX-730 i'm very happy with them. seriously, i'm almost tempted not to reconnect the MD100s. if i do reconnect them i know this, it won't be in the kicks. hell, i'm even tempted to lose the MD140/2s as well and just do a 2-way with the MW160s and one of the tweeter sets.
 

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I fully agree on the original post, I have kicks in my Dakota, the arrangement in the civic with the dead pedal and me wanting to keep a stockish look pushed me to doors and sail panels. I like both, yea, they sound different. I LOVE the stage height of having the tweets higher and I DO use TA and it makes a TON of difference on and off. Regrdless of what EQing I used in the truck I could never fake my ears inbto the right stage height, even temporarily using 10 BANDS PER CHANNEL of Orban FULLY PARAMETRIC EQ, that's over $5K of broadcast EQ folks! It still sounds great but the height is not there. My Caddy had kicks and it sounded great, stage height was fine, a little low but fine, and the localization was AMAZING, BIG car though! I'm happy with the Civic, Kicks would hinder my driving expierience WAY too much. But as the OP said, there IS SOOOOOO MUCH to equalizing pathlengths that one should NEVER overlook kick panels as a option.

Chad (Bet that one has a bunch of typos!)
 
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