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Discussion Starter #84
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If that is why you think you were asked to leave... I think you have been drinking PLENTY of koolaid.

Mike, you may be blind, but you are still the only judge to EVER reach for my processor (Which has NOTHING to do with volume or any controls you may need), while judging my system, in fact, it is in the sunglasses holder, nowhere near ANYTHING else...

So when you judge a vehicle, and are reaching for shit, while you are judging it, and score it SUBSTANTIALLY lower than the other 2 judges did, I wonder: Was he actually focusing on the task of judging my vehicle or does he just not give a shit?

No Need to respond, what is done is done, and I know for a fact I did not have the best sounding car that day: I listened to better. But don't plant a little seed like you did and distort the truth in why you were asked not to judge again.

You're a knowledgeable guy and I am sure you have good ears, but your mini rant has me questioning what is between them.

I don't have to respond, but since its still a bug up your butt I feel that its good that I do.

I went looking for your processor control, knowing that you have an h800, also knowing you were going to get a low score on linearity at the high end if I didn't find a tad more volume..guess whats the only knob on the c800? yep..volume! so you can think whatever you want and you obviously have, but why didn't you ask me at the time? or bring it up privately if you felt it was some huge issue that actually made you question my brain usage? I stand by what I said and if you don't believe it, that's totally fine, but for you to harp on one little thing is ridiculous and petty.
 

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Discussion Starter #85
I agree that putting a percentage on the importance of tuning/install is silly, but we have to eknowlege that a lot of the inspiration of this thread was? what can you do with little while others spend lots? what can I do with little? tune well and consider a lot of factors like acoustic treatment and such, and how far can that take me? well we shall see someday, but I do think in the long run what you do with the gear is miles more important than what gear you do it with.
 

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I don't have to respond, but since its still a bug up your butt I feel that its good that I do.

I went looking for your processor control, knowing that you have an h800, also knowing you were going to get a low score on linearity at the high end if I didn't find a tad more volume..guess whats the only knob on the c800? yep..volume! so you can think whatever you want and you obviously have, but why didn't you ask me at the time? or bring it up privately if you felt it was some huge issue that actually made you question my brain usage? I stand by what I said and if you don't believe it, that's totally fine, but for you to harp on one little thing is ridiculous and petty.

Mike, I have a w910.
The knob on the H800 does not function for volume with a w910.
Again, you are full of shit.

And I have more volume than any judge ever needs.
Again, you are absolutely full of shit.
 

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What you do with the gear vs what gear you do it with is that fine line. It's that gray area that many avoid. Yet, I find I like to live in that area because that's where it's no longer about price or necessarily you get what you pay for. Rather it's deal with your skills at choosing proper parts regardless of price or brand.

For instance, Infinite baffle always seems to be one of the most debated or confusing topics here and elsewhere. Some even believe that anything can work. Well perhaps to a degree. Maybe you can move all sorts of sliders around, add filters, punch holes in the cone, slit spiders, or whatever to make it work. Or maybe you can just choose the most suitable gear for that PARTICULAR install to cut to the chase. That seems to be a big issue with the latter. Just because that same product did well in a conventional enclosure doesn't mean it will do even better in another despite what some say. The same train of thought applies to all else.

So tuning is important, but so is optimization (which is the term I use for having the right parts maximally installed). Tuning should come after optimization. However, at some point it can all become semantics.
 

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Discussion Starter #88
Mike, I have a w910.
The knob on the H800 does not function for volume with a w910.
Again, you are full of shit.

And I have more volume than any judge ever needs.
Again, you are absolutely full of shit.

I did not realize what headunit you had so you are absolutely right in that my efforts were for naught. I find it sad that you were once one of the competitors I truly wanted to help/work with, someone whose approach mirrored a lot of what I thought was important in car audio, go big or go home, more cone area, more power than you'll ever need..but its come to this. notice dear readers, I have not felt the need to belittle this poster even though he has done it both here and rather more vigorously on other platforms I don't read but do get told about..i stick by what I said, you are being exceptionally petty
 

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I say too much emphasis on tuning .... if tuning is 90% then we can just buy the el cheapo range of everything and it should sound the same as a top spec'd Sinfoni or ZR Speaker lab system

Assuming you know how to tune a car...


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I'd say YES, yes it should.

As long as "el cheapo" meets a low distortion, proper performance standard. Example, Fountek, or Dayton drivers, Silver Flutes, SB Acoustics, SEAS, etc etc.,

So yeah, I firmly believe that a well-tuned/optimized system can keep up with highly expensive stuff, provided these basics are met.
 

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I think what we should do is evolve this thread into a sort of "graph", a bell curve if you will, of performance per dollar. We could then extrapolate a basic understanding beyond just saying "its good" or "its expensive but good". I'd propose we do this with the understanding that amps should be separate from processors, tweeters separate from mids, etc. A bell curve of cost to performance for a given item. Or perhaps it would be a logarithmic plot. Point is, although it would be highly subjective, we could go through most brands and models and assign them an arbitary performance / dollar ratio that, through voting, should arrive at a reasonable conclusion.

Of course, I contend that install makes up at least 90% of the results if not closer to 99%, there's still that sweet spot of expense that one can expect to get results.

Example, I'd say for subs, about $150-$200 is the sweet spot per sub. And for tweeters, about $50 a pair is where things usually start getting pretty good. But we can get more accurate with more subjective opinions and it may help newbs as well as veterans getting back in the game.
In theory, I like the idea. In execution, to do this correctly the task is so monumental that it borders on impossible. The first hurdle is that it would almost certainly be subjective. (We all know the reaction to subjective reviews.) And coming to a consensus on driver price : performance ratio based on collective, subjective reviews will likely be the equivalent of getting our wives/girlfriends to decide where to go to dinner.

You could get around that with consistent, single source, single method, objective testing. But with such testing the hurdles become the logistics and finances to have all of the various drivers tested. Again, no small task. And while there would certainly still be nay-sayers, at least there will be "pretty" pictures.

In the mean time we have the status quo of the collective knowledge of DIYMA and sources like it. Some information from active research and some just regurgitating what they have seen other say a hundred times before them.

Yes, my friend, I fear all we have left to do is to sit back and watch the effects of entropy on DIYMA become more apparent with each passing day.

TL;DR
 

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This is interesting as I would have thought the quality of the head-unit might count for more? You know, the old adage "garbage in, garbage out"? Of course, a good tune/optimization might help offset some head-unit shortcomings. But, aren't there some head-units that seem to shine above others and don't they usually require at least a marginal investment?
I could be completely wrong in this line of thinking though.
GIGO is definitely a problem, but a stock head unit outputting to a processor via speaker out through the factory amp (like I have to have) can potentially still be good, as it just depends on the upstream gear's performance. Aftermarket or OEM, RCA or speaker-level.

We definitely want minimal loss through the head unit though. Some people are so lucky as to even be able to use an aftermarket head.
 

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I'd say YES, yes it should.

As long as "el cheapo" meets a low distortion, proper performance standard. Example, Fountek, or Dayton drivers, Silver Flutes, SB Acoustics, SEAS, etc etc.,

So yeah, I firmly believe that a well-tuned/optimized system can keep up with highly expensive stuff, provided these basics are met.


Well you only mentioned speakers what about a ODR source and DSP vs a OEM cheap HU? Or a lightning audio amp vs a Sinfoni?

As good as a tuner may be I am pretty sure he could get a better result if he had proper tools to work with...


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I think what we should do is evolve this thread into a sort of "graph"..............
I'll give it a try. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a decent venn diagram creator? Jesus wept.

I don't even know if I'm using that right.

 

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Discussion Starter #95
What kind of car was it Mike?

what type of car is which? the discussed vehicle, chets car, is a ford edge. mine will be a cargo van or similar largish vehicle cause that's the only car I could justify buying for work reasons..gotta haul the pro audio around or it isn't worth the investment.
 

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I try to live in the 'nobody cares' area

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Me too. I like my stuff to be sexy in a utilitarian sort of way. These SB Acoustics woofers that will be going in my doors are pretty damn sexy!

I'm going to do my install by starting at the back of the vehicle and work my way forward so I don't have to do a makeshift amp rack. Stock speaker wire will be tapped into at the stock amp since I'll be back there anyway getting signal from the front door woofers and tweets for the Fix82. This will leave the stock poly 6x9's in doors (think they're the blue Alpine woofers) and fabric tweets in sail panels on 75rms each and a pretty good processor. May as well see how much I can polish the stock turds. And factory d-pillar speakers will be used for rearfill with no plans of changing them since they're for enhancement purposes only. Not audible until they're not. In other words, I'm going to see just how good I can get really cheap speakers to sound. Probably costs FCA about $50 tops for all 4 "premium" speakers in front doors and sails.
 

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I don't know if it's been mentioned but there's absolutely the psychoacoustic effect of 'pride of ownership'. If someone pays more for a product they feel is worth it and that helps improve their listening experience, it's not my place to tell them they're wrong. Helping them understand alternatives and rationalize why item A may be better than item B even though it costs less is fine. In some ways, it's also akin to the DIY mentality. I've seen, and have been part of, people spending countless amounts of money on an install they did themselves when a shop could have done a better job and saved them money in the long run. The reason for the DIY method being acceptable is "because I did it myself". That's pride of ownership/work. Even though it still cost more in the long run. ;)

Additionally, sometimes paying "up" for a certain product because it helps you save in other areas is perfectly reasonable. I'm a fan of buying a good speaker with near-flat on-axis response and off-axis response that mimics the on-axis (outside of beaming, as it falls in amplitude). There are a lot of "DIY" speakers that do this and a lot that don't. Some cost a lot. Some cost very little. Then you have to account for the bandwidth played and how that impacts the IMD (intermodulated distortion) especially when playing near Fs (i.e.; a midwoofer or subwoofer). Then install constraints are a factor (stealth vs. not, for one).

Sometimes the right speaker for the install simply costs more even though it's performance isn't significantly better, it may literally 'fit' the bill better which gets one closer to the goal they have.


Lots of variables. Too many to simply attach random percentages or come up with a one-fits-all graph.
 

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I don't know if it's been mentioned but there's absolutely the psychoacoustic effect of 'pride of ownership'. If someone pays more for a product they feel is worth it and that helps improve their listening experience, it's not my place to tell them they're wrong. Helping them understand alternatives and rationalize why item A may be better than item B even though it costs less is fine. In some ways, it's also akin to the DIY mentality. I've seen, and have been part of, people spending countless amounts of money on an install they did themselves when a shop could have done a better job and saved them money in the long run. The reason for the DIY method being acceptable is "because I did it myself". That's pride of ownership/work. Even though it still cost more in the long run. ;)

Additionally, sometimes paying "up" for a certain product because it helps you save in other areas is perfectly reasonable. I'm a fan of buying a good speaker with near-flat on-axis response and off-axis response that mimics the on-axis (outside of beaming, as it falls in amplitude). There are a lot of "DIY" speakers that do this and a lot that don't. Some cost a lot. Some cost very little. Then you have to account for the bandwidth played and how that impacts the IMD (intermodulated distortion) especially when playing near Fs (i.e.; a midwoofer or subwoofer). Then install constraints are a factor (stealth vs. not, for one).

Sometimes the right speaker for the install simply costs more even though it's performance isn't significantly better, it may literally 'fit' the bill better which gets one closer to the goal they have.


Lots of variables. Too many to simply attach random percentages or come up with a one-fits-all graph.
Yeah and after the new and cool stage is over they realize they are not as amazing as they thought and look for something else.
You see people swapping out expensive gear for expensive gear more then you see it the other way around.
 
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