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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Of course I've read the big, long, scientific threads about why capacitors are worthless, and yada, yada....

But if ever there was a system in which they might help, I think it might be mine. Here's why.....
My RF Power 1000 can play long, or even constant bass notes, louder than I can even stand it {for more than a few minutes anyway} without so much as a flicker of red from the LED clipping indicator. On the other hand, the thing that will make for 'blips' of red, quite a bit sooner, is like kick drums, and short bursts of synth bass.
Isn't this what a capacitor supposedly helps with ? Short bursts of juice ?

Hmmmm. I don't think I'd pay full price for one. Their are probably a lot of things that would help more. But I would like to try one. How big a capacitor would be recommended for my RF Power 1000 ? (the way I'm running it, it puts out up to about 1200 wts RMS)

Anyone think a big enough capacitor would eliminate that red blip during each kick of the drum ? "OR" do you think my amp is getting enough volts, fast enough, but is already doing all it can with them ?
Maybe impossible to answer.... but what would be your guess ?

Your thoughts about adding a cap to my system.....

Peace,
Fish
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you kyheng......

I have upgraded the... Big 4 actually.... then had it explained to me by Andy W. why upgrading the Big 3 is typically a complete waste of time and money :-(

I have not upgraded my alternator..... but being that it is a brand new alternator, in a 1/2 ton truck, it's probably about as strong a stock alternator as one would find. Varying opinions on the output though... 120 to 140 amps ?
I figure, I'll beat on it until it dies, then get a better one.

I am using true 1/0 gage power cable. Stinger brand to be exact.

BTW, even when driving my RF Power 1000 right to the clipping point, I get "zero" flickering of my headlights..... even if I have the headlights turned on, and the motor turned off.

Oh, and you didn't ask, but I have a really nice battery too. Nearly twice the CCA's of the stock battery.

Peace,
Fish
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hello hispls. Yes, I understand that. But I've always believed, that if an amp runs out (or short) on juice, it will begin to clip prematurely...... or, sooner than it would if it had all the juice it was asking for.

So, in other words, voltage and wattage are directly related. When voltage drops, wattage drops.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Peace,
Fish
 

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It would be my first thought that a clipping light is for the signal coming into the amp, and nothing to do with power output..

Unless RF did theirs different, i dunno?

If this is so, it is nothing to do with your electric system, but your gains...


just my 2 cents//
 

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It would be my first thought that a clipping light is for the signal coming into the amp, and nothing to do with power output..

Unless RF did theirs different, i dunno?

If this is so, it is nothing to do with your electric system, but your gains...


just my 2 cents//
x2. You would need an output clip indicator circuit like the Zapco DC have to tell you when the output falls apart.
 

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Re: Thank you kyheng......

I have upgraded the... Big 4 actually.... then had it explained to me by Andy W. why upgrading the Big 3 is typically a complete waste of time and money :-(

I have not upgraded my alternator..... but being that it is a brand new alternator, in a 1/2 ton truck, it's probably about as strong a stock alternator as one would find. Varying opinions on the output though... 120 to 140 amps ?
I figure, I'll beat on it until it dies, then get a better one.

I am using true 1/0 gage power cable. Stinger brand to be exact.

BTW, even when driving my RF Power 1000 right to the clipping point, I get "zero" flickering of my headlights..... even if I have the headlights turned on, and the motor turned off.

Oh, and you didn't ask, but I have a really nice battery too. Nearly twice the CCA's of the stock battery.

Peace,
Fish
If your battery voltage doesn't ever drop to the point where it can not provide the amp with the power it needs to make the wattage you are asking for, then you don't need a capacitor.

The battery drops in voltage as current demand goes up. A low internal resistance battery does not drop as much in voltage as you pull more current. So if it doesn't drop below acceptable limits then it is in fact acting like a capacitor.
 

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Did you ever consider that you may listen to music that is very dynamic, which is good? When I mix bands, the thing that's most likely to clip the amps when I get it as meaty as I want it is..... Snare drum ;) Kick too. I prefer not to squeeze the **** out of my mixes. A kick drum contains WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY (you get it yet?) WAY, WAY, WAY, more instantaneous energy than a bass drone, unless you are sagging the voltage coming into the amp, which is unlikely with a quick kick, then you are fine. the ears don't mind a quick punchy kick but if oyu played that instantaneous level that a kick is capable of over the course of a second or two it would kick your ass. and your system's ass. and your dog's ass.
 

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I agree. I don't think a cap will make one bit of difference in your system. You'd be much better off spending you $$ on a second battery.
Your only concern should be supplying the amp with enough voltage. If that amp has an unregulated power supply, it will continue to pull more current as the voltage supply drops. If the voltage drops below 9 or 10 volts, then you may kill the amp quickly.
 

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Did you ever consider that you may listen to music that is very dynamic, which is good? When I mix bands, the thing that's most likely to clip the amps when I get it as meaty as I want it is..... Snare drum ;) Kick too. I prefer not to squeeze the **** out of my mixes. A kick drum contains WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY (you get it yet?) WAY, WAY, WAY, more instantaneous energy than a bass drone, unless you are sagging the voltage coming into the amp, which is unlikely with a quick kick, then you are fine. the ears don't mind a quick punchy kick but if oyu played that instantaneous level that a kick is capable of over the course of a second or two it would kick your ass. and your system's ass. and your dog's ass.
Making Sense of Amplifier Power Ratings

"Making Sense of Amplifier Power Ratings

Download PDF Version (62 K)

TECHNICAL REPORT

By John Meyer
April 2005

More manufacturers are now producing self-powered loudspeakers, as Meyer Sound has done since 1995. But, with this trend, the subject of rating power amplifiers has begun to suffer from considerable confusion and misinformation. In order for users to have any idea of a self-powered loudspeaker’s true capabilities, clarification must be brought to the topic. This paper will try to bring some clear and solid information into the discussion in the hopes that users may gain a better understanding of power amplifiers, making them better able to evaluate products. Perhaps the most common term in need of examination is “peak watts,” a popular way of expressing amplifier power.

In the engineering community, the accepted method of generating a rating of the audio power produced by an amplifier is to connect it to a known load, apply a continuous sine wave signal to its inputs, and monitor its output behavior into the load. This is important to keep in mind as we examine the definition and measurement of “power.”

The definition of instantaneous electrical power is quite simple: P = EI, where P = instantaneous power in watts, E = potential difference in volts, and I = current in amperes. However, this definition is minimally useful to us in an audio application because audio sources are not instantaneous pulses, nor are audio loads purely resistive.

A sine wave is the building block from which real-world audio signals are built, making it a more appropriate source signal for measurement of an audio system. For a sinusoidal voltage source, power, while still measured in watts, is defined as“average power.” RMS (root mean square) is a method of calculating the voltage and current to obtain the average power.

For example, if we look at the sine wave voltage at the output terminals of a power amplifier, we will find the RMS voltage to be the peak voltage (Epeak) divided by the square root of 2. If we measure the RMS sine wave current from the amplifier, we will see that, similarly, it is the peak current (Ipeak) divided by the square root of 2.

Multiplying the two, we get:

(E peak /(sq root 2)) * (I peak /(sq root 2)) = (E peak * I peak)/2

which is the average power for a sine wave.

When an amplifier is rated in RMS watts, this is a shorthand way of saying “average watts obtained by the RMS method.” If you use a signal other than a sine wave, you must use a meter reading ‘true’ RMS voltage to obtain the correct average power.

So what about peak power? Peak power is a special case where Ppeak = Epeak * I peak. For a sine wave, this is always twice the average power. A major problem with using this rating, however, is that many power amplifiers cannot maintain peak power for more than a few milliseconds.

The standard method of testing a power amplifier to see if the power supply can maintain continuous peak power is to connect all channels of the amplifier into load resistors, drive the amplifier’s input with a square wave and monitor the peak voltage at the outputs. Almost all power amplifiers will ‘sag’ in output power under this drive condition.

Now, having a power amplifier produce twice the continuous sine wave power is hardly necessary for music reproduction, but sometimes music signals produce short-term square wave or large sine wave-like waveforms. So how long should a power amplifier be able to maintain reproduction of a square wave or sine wave at full amplitude?

Recently Meyer Sound measured a well-known dual 18” subwoofer system that came with a power amplifier. The amplifier’s power supply rail when it was not being driven sat at 160 volts. Using this rail voltage, we could calculate the instantaneous peak power for a 4 ohm (resistive) load to be:

E2/R = 1602/4 = 6,400 watts per channel

Thus, we could claim this amplifier has well over 12,000 watts of peak power. This is a very impressive power rating to publish, but is it at all meaningful? Meyer Sound engineers drove the system with a single, drum note of 40 milliseconds in duration. The power amplifier rail voltage plummeted from 160 volts to 80 volts while playing the note. This 80-volt drop in output level acts as a compressor on the audio. The transducers used in this system were very non-linear, producing a large amount of second harmonic distortion.


This combination of sagging amplifier output and non-linear transducers imposes its distinctive sound character on signals it reproduces, preventing accurate reproduction of some signals. This presents a severe limitation to users, as the loudspeaker can only sound good on signals which are complemented by that sound character, such as the case of an over-damped, close-mic’ed drum.

With current technology, it is not necessary to limit the quality of a sound system’s reproduction in order to obtain a subjectively desirable sound. The best solution to obtaining any such sound is not to use a loudspeaker as a creative processor, but to have a linear loudspeaker system capable of accurately reproducing any musical signal and then use digital processing to create compression, distortion, or other creative effects that are needed.

Driven by the same drum beat signal, Meyer Sound’s 700-HP ultrahigh-power subwoofer produced more sound level, while the sound was a true reproduction of the dry sound of the recorded signal. The 700-HP, therefore, is capable of reproducing a drum beat processed with compression equally as well as one that is entirely dry and unprocessed.

Meyer Sound’s research has found that, in order to reproduce music without compressing the signal, the power amplifier should be capable of maintaining reproduction of a sine wave at full amplitude (i.e. where the sine wave’s peak amplitude reaches the maximum available voltage swing without clipping) into its intended load for at least 500 milliseconds. Meyer Sound refers to the average power during this 500 milliseconds as“true burst power.” Peak power output should last at least 100 milliseconds in order to be useful for music reproduction. All Meyer Sound self-powered loudspeakers meet this criterion, and this rating will be included on data sheets for these products. Up until now, Meyer Sound has not published specifications relating to the peak power of this burst.

It is hoped that this paper will serve to demystify the subject of power amplifier ratings and lead to a more uniform method of obtaining and stating ratings for amplifiers in self-powered loudspeaker systems. Good sound is the result of skilled application of high-quality audio devices, and the necessary skills can only be attained when straightforward factual information is available and understood."

Inertia is a mother. :D
 

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I believe the tone he's referring to lasts way more than 500 MS.

Some past conversation:

I just feel that rating an amplifier at sine wave output is a bit unnecessary for a device designed to amplify music, not a high duty cycle tone. This article kind of sums it up, it's not directed at you but for others to paruse. I'm prettyy sure you know what I'm talking about.

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/i-tech-livesound_jan07.pdf

Rail voltages at 200V and can be sustained for a few seconds max. But do they need to sustain any longer? That begs the question.


If you asked me about this 3 years ago I would have fought tooth and nail about the new rating system. I liked the "old iron amps." But after seeing the new breed of amplifier in action I can say that it really makes no difference, the new amps, say one that can make huge peak power but only sustain a fraction of that will SMOKE a similar amplifier that can sustain more then the newer ones. So yes a 5KW amp MAY be able to sustain 1KW but will chew an amp alive that can sustain 2KW when it comes down to the real deal. Pushing a bunch of 18's every time that kick drum hits.

It goes right along with the earlier thread of how much juice is REALLY getting pulled down those power leads to the boot.


Chad
I would seriously entertain a suggestion along these lines :

"We know that any complex signal can be decompossed into nothing but a linear combination of sine waves, aka tones. But a single sinewave is not very representaive for two reasons :

1. Intermod distortion requires more than a single freqeuncy.
2. The crest factor (ratio of peak power to average power) of a single sinewave is not representative of music.

We recongize that amplifer design can "exploit" the crest factor of typical music, by storing sufficient amounts of internal energy. This may allow an amplifier to supply peak-bursts, for short periods of time, even though the long-term average power delivered is unaffected by internal energy storage.

Therefore we propose a test consisting of an industry-standard signal, somewhat more complex than a single sinewave, ...."

Know what i mean? First, demonstrate a mastery of simple engineerig concepts. Then, demonstrate why the new proposal is not just more marketing fluff, but real valubale stuff. Then, demonstrate that you're not just going to try to fool the consumer by inflating the results of the existing tests, just to sell your product. Finally, propose the new method.

And yes, i know, my criticisms are kinda aimed wildly ... at manufacturers as well as hobbyists!
They have this industry standard signal in place, I'll find out what it is. Some folks chose to test with a more rigourous signal though, which, is fine with me.

I'm totally with you though :D

*edit* Lab Gruppen's testing is a 1K tone 33.3ms on and 66.6ms off. But again, that's not the standard and this is for their max voltage bench "stress test" I'm pretty sure it's the same thing 20-20K for ratings testing. I need to gather more info before I can feel comfortable.
Well Werewolf, if you are still reading.......

The power rating standard I was referring to is the EIA/CEA-490-A

It is as follows:

20ms burst at full power (THD+N <1%) followed by 480ms 20dB below full power. Representng music with a 16dB crest factor at 120BPM.

Gruppen does it with a 12dB crest factor and a 25ms burst while rating the same as CEA-490-A
I almost has it for you this afternoon but was typing in 4090-A... Grrr.

Chad
 

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Just wondering but I have heard before that caps can have a positive effect on the electrical system by smoothing out the ac waveform or something like that (sorry I can't remember the exact terms :( ). Like I said can't remember the exact terms but I remember some people arguing that it might extend the life of the alternator a bit because it could smooth out spikes in power or something along those lines. Is there any validity to this argument? Would having a small kinetik battery in the trunk help out more then a cap? And this also assumes that your cars electrical system can keep up with your amps and you get no dimming as I have never really considered a cap a fix for dimming issues.
 

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Just wondering but I have heard before that caps can have a positive effect on the electrical system by smoothing out the ac waveform or something like that (sorry I can't remember the exact terms :( ). Like I said can't remember the exact terms but I remember some people arguing that it might extend the life of the alternator a bit because it could smooth out spikes in power or something along those lines. Is there any validity to this argument? Would having a small kinetik battery in the trunk help out more then a cap? And this also assumes that your cars electrical system can keep up with your amps and you get no dimming as I have never really considered a cap a fix for dimming issues.

Modern AGM batteries have a very low internal resistance approaching that of a cap. Hence why one company re-branded small AGM batteries as "battcaps" ;)
 

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One possibility is that the caps in the AMP need boosting, not an external capacitor to the amp. If the electrical system of the car is up to par (little voltage drop, proper wiring, big 3, etc) the local storage caps internal to the amp might not be enough capacitance (or less likely: too high ESR) for your high instantaneous signals like a kick drum.

You say you are running the amp at 1200 RMS. That seems like it is at the high end of the amp's range so it is possible you are pushing it right to its limit and its running out of steam for those high energy peaks.
 

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Re: Thank you kyheng......

I have upgraded the... Big 4 actually.... then had it explained to me by Andy W. why upgrading the Big 3 is typically a complete waste of time and money :-(
I've heard many argue that the big 3 may not be as big or even make a difference in a car, but in my experience the simple 1/0 gauge alt-battery wire made a HUGE difference. Not just with audio, my car runs better. The ignition is MUCH more complete now and the exhaust is much quieter due to a faster, hotter, and more complete burn. My girlfriend drove my car afterward and asked when i added more sound deadener on the car! It really is important when using high-powered car audio to add large gauge grounding straps from batt-engine, and frame-batt as well as the alt to battery connection. The stock grounding systems are usually only meant to carry the absolute max that the stock car needs, and often they are under-rated at that. Chrysler uses 8-gauge for their alt-battery wire. Yeah, it's hard to believe. I don't like to throw this around because it really does NOT mean i'm right, but it does mean i should know a little something, i carry 3 ASE certifications in engine performance, braking, and electrical.


All that said, capacitor threads always turn into a chaotic holocaust of physics, experience, and non-definitive answers ;)
 

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Hello hispls. Yes, I understand that. But I've always believed, that if an amp runs out (or short) on juice, it will begin to clip prematurely...... or, sooner than it would if it had all the juice it was asking for.

So, in other words, voltage and wattage are directly related. When voltage drops, wattage drops.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Peace,
Fish
A lot of good stuff has been posted already. True to some extent, an amp with unregulated power supply will run into clipping at different points if you drop voltage into it, but from what you describe I wouldn't guess that's what's happening, and if it were, I wouldn't reccomend a capacitor as a fix.

Interesting is the idea that the clipping light has to do with gains and a clipped signal into the amp. I'd do more testing along that line first as re-adjusting the gains would cost absolutely nothing.

Also if it sounds good and you're not having noticeable voltage drops, why even worry?
 
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