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Also (and please correct me if I’m wrong, community), running the tweets on your four channel amp with the mids isn’t a bad thing. If you keep your gains equal between the two sets of channels, the tweets will stay matched with the mids as the volume knob turns. You definitely have more headroom than you need, but if what you have is a 4 channel, there’s no need (or advantage) to running a separate (smaller) amp for the tweeters. Just make sure they’re protected from a full-range signal with a fuse/cap/lamp/whatever in case you get a setting wrong in the DSP or a friend/child attempt to “fix” your tune.
 

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Yes, the extreme left and right is the signal that was mixed only in those channels. The shared information, which is the centered information, usually vocals, and a lot of the instrumentation is removed completely. Once you have the L-R signal, you delay it heavily, and bandbass it. This creates a new "room" by giving the illusion of sound reflecting off of the back wall and returning to the listener many milliseconds later with some frequencies attenuated.

You can do this with the Helix stuff, and a few other processors, the MS8 is one of them I believe. I really don't know the full list of which processors do this, but there are plenty of members here who have used a lot of different equipment, and can answer that question.
So then I assume, nobody runs full range, non bandpassed, stereo signals to speakers in the rear deck anymore?
 

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So then I assume, nobody runs full range, non bandpassed, stereo signals to speakers in the rear deck anymore?
Some people do, but it sounds bad. One aspect of an SQ system is accurate stereo reproduction of the illusion of a "sound stage". You hear excellent staging with a pair of good home speakers, and you get a similar (but different) illusion with headphones, but that's much harder to do in a car. Rear speakers contribute significantly to the destruction of that illusion. Heavily processed differential rear fill (the kind I mentioned earlier) doesn't ruin that illusion, it adds an (artificial) ambiance without ruining the staging.
 

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Is the dayton 408 pretty clean and clear? Does anybody have experience using one and how it adds to the noise floor or affects SQ?

There are a lot of reviews of their remote knob that are quite poor, saying that the knob adds RF interference and audible noise to the 408...
I noticed noise floor since I installed the 408 and the remote added even more, I had to unplug it. I can deal with the little noise, I only pay attention to it if the car is not running and no music or low volume.

About rear fill, I have been reading this forum for 3 years, and everybody always talk about this rear fill, R- L- or whatever, and delay. First the 408 doesn't have the necessary delay to experience whatever you're supposed to experience.
I run rear speakers since the beginning of my install. Always sounded fine to me, then I read that rear needed to be at set at (1) 300/800hz and lower level, so I did, front 80/2500, tweets 2500/up, sounded fine.

Then I set rear at (2) 80/500, front 500/2500, tweeter 2500/up, still sound fine.
I'm listening 80% transe, then edm, billboard top 100, rap, jazz, classical, image is good, voice on the dash, no problem.
If I remove the rear, I feel like something is missing, the space is not has filled with music.
I understand the concert goers want to re-experience the concert with music coming only from the front, but for nightclub goers, music all around is good too.


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I noticed noise floor since I installed the 408 and the remote added even more, I had to unplug it. I can deal with the little noise, I only pay attention to it if the car is not running and no music or low volume.

About rear fill, I have been reading this forum for 3 years, and everybody always talk about this rear fill, R- L- or whatever, and delay. First the 408 doesn't have the necessary delay to experience whatever you're supposed to experience.
I run rear speakers since the beginning of my install. Always sounded fine to me, then I read that rear needed to be at set at (1) 300/800hz and lower level, so I did, front 80/2500, tweets 2500/up, sounded fine.

Then I set rear at (2) 80/500, front 500/2500, tweeter 2500/up, still sound fine.
I'm listening 80% transe, then edm, billboard top 100, rap, jazz, classical, image is good, voice on the dash, no problem.
If I remove the rear, I feel like something is missing, the space is not has filled with music.
I understand the concert goers want to re-experience the concert with music coming only from the front, but for nightclub goers, music all around is good too.


Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk
Everything below 500hz is playing from behind you?
 

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I run rear speakers since the beginning of my install. Always sounded fine to me, then I read that rear needed to be at set at (1) 300/800hz and lower level, so I did, front 80/2500, tweets 2500/up, sounded fine.

Then I set rear at (2) 80/500, front 500/2500, tweeter 2500/up, still sound fine.
I'm listening 80% transe, then edm, billboard top 100, rap, jazz, classical, image is good, voice on the dash, no problem.
If I remove the rear, I feel like something is missing, the space is not has filled with music.
I have to agree here... I run my rear speakers at 75/4000 and at a lower level than front and I like what it adds. Tried running fronts only for a while and just didn't like it. Even though the rears don't take away from the front sound stage, they still add something that I just like. Don't care if it's technically "correct" or not - it's what I like. :)
 

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I have to agree here... I run my rear speakers at 75/4000 and at a lower level than front and I like what it adds. Tried running fronts only for a while and just didn't like it. Even though the rears don't take away from the front sound stage, they still add something that I just like. Don't care if it's technically "correct" or not - it's what I like. :)
It's certainly what most people are used to, since that's how just about every car stereo is implemented.
 

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Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
If the 408 isn't clean then I would want to look elsewhere for something I can bring into future vehicles as part of an upgrade path to clean sound.

What is out there between the 408 and the helix that I can investigate? 10 channels would be good. I think only the helix has the differential rear processing...

Is anybody moving away from RCAs and into higher purity signal transport?

If I'm getting higher quality amplifiers for the active front is it smarter to get a smaller 2 channel for the tweets and then a different amp for the woofers (a bigger one) ? Or is it better to just get a 4 or 6 channel 50 or 60 watt amp. I have plenty of space for more amplifiers, but my constraints are amperage usage, budget, and SQ.

I like the discussion about rears and what it can do both the good and the bad. Using amplifier channels to run rears is tough when you are already planning or compromising around channels to actively run a front. With a 2 way its not so hard of course (6 channels to include rears) but 3 way means 8 channels of amplification. It also means allowing for a greater electrical setup and more complicated wiring which can lead to added noise. Its interesting the diamonds have that RAF rear audio fill feature on the passive crossovers I used it years ago but haven't done it with my current diamonds. Next week is February break and I could just slam some coax's in the rear doors and hook up the RAF to it.
 

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I have to agree here... I run my rear speakers at 75/4000 and at a lower level than front and I like what it adds. Tried running fronts only for a while and just didn't like it. Even though the rears don't take away from the front sound stage, they still add something that I just like. Don't care if it's technically "correct" or not - it's what I like. :)
Thats exactly what I was thinking.
 

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There's nothing wrong with liking rear fill, no it's not proper stereo, but still there's nothing wrong with preferring it, especially since that's what we all have come to know with regard to how cars sound. But, I'm very skeptical of the claim that it's not taking away from the front stage. Perhaps you don't listen particularly critically (which is fine) or you don't listen to music that uses any decent stereo mixing (also fine) but rear speakers will pull the stage backwards a bit, and the louder they are, the more rearward the stage will be pulled.
 

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This may sound like a dumb question but, if you need to run a bandpassed signal to a pair of rear coaxial speakers with obvious internal xovers (ie, The Audiofrog GS62s) how do you bypass the xovers?
Or do you just simply run a single full range driver and run your own comb over it?
 

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There's nothing wrong with liking rear fill, no it's not proper stereo, but still there's nothing wrong with preferring it, especially since that's what we all have come to know with regard to how cars sound. But, I'm very skeptical of the claim that it's not taking away from the front stage. Perhaps you don't listen particularly critically (which is fine) or you don't listen to music that uses any decent stereo mixing (also fine) but rear speakers will pull the stage backwards a bit, and the louder they are, the more rearward the stage will be pulled.
We can run a potetiometer in the rear signal path to attenuate the rear volume as to not drag rearward the sounstage though correct?
 

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We can run a potetiometer in the rear signal path to attenuate the rear volume as to not drag rearward the sounstage though correct?
If you use a dsp, you can lower the level, and if you connected them correctly you can use your Hu fader.

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We can run a potetiometer in the rear signal path to attenuate the rear volume as to not drag rearward the sounstage though correct?
Sure, if you've wired your stereo in a way that renders the fader unless. Ohterwise use the fader feature that pretty much all stereos have.

I do think though, that if you have the rears loud enough to make any difference, then they will be having a negative impact on the stage. Whether or not that matters is up to the listener.
 
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