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Discussion Starter #1
Hi All,

I've got basic setup: 12" sub, 6" mids in doors and tweets in sails. Got some DSP power (MiniDSP).
Recently I successfully moved mid/sub cut frequency to 200Hz (my sub is just behind from passenger seat, no localization). And I'm tempting now to get rid of mids completely by installing 3"-4" on dash.
I read alot great treads here about fullrangers, but still have some questions to ask and to listen to recommendations according to my "not kinda usual" plan:

Need to understand an ability of playing "lower mid" (200-300Hz) by different speakers. I see Aura NS3 with it's Xmax 19pp. But sensitivity is 80db! Is it possible for NS3's to play these freqs at moderate (read while car moving) levels? From other point 4" driver with larger Sd will not require such Xmax. Good candidate I can see is FR89 or RS100...

"Upper mid" is not as important to me (at least right now). Don't like 2-4kHz range at all - always tame it in car about 10-15db. Also having DSP I can correct driver there. So the only selection criteria will be "lower end".

Any thoughts?
 

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all i can say is good luck. with a sub playing up to 200 hz, there is no way you are not localizing it. putting midbass into a large sub will make that sucker roar.

can it be done, sure. not sure about imaging or realistic FR.

killing 2-4khz will also kill vocals and any and all cybals and high end sound. again, good luck.
 

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you would need an array of smaller fullrangers for the volume you require. it may be simpler to keep your midbass and use the fullrangers a bit higher up.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
all i can say is good luck. with a sub playing up to 200 hz, there is no way you are not localizing it.
killing 2-4khz will also kill vocals and any and all cybals and high end sound. again, good luck.
I expected this kind of answer. What can I say - my perceptions are my only. There is no point to me to stand up here and say untrue. Let's say I have "good luck" with 200Hz and "killing" 2-4kHz. Then what about fullrangers?

P.S. Did you ever tried to localize 200Hz-300Hz yourself? Do your home cabinets "roar"? Why car's one should? About 2-4kHz: any comments on "Equal-loudness contour"? For clarity sake: I do not kill this region but tune by ear trying to get "flatness". Everytime when measuring back with RTA (and see EQ setup) I can see this "hole". What the reason to me to catch the speaker with flat response in that area if it 99% will be edited?
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
you would need an array of smaller fullrangers for the volume you require. it may be simpler to keep your midbass and use the fullrangers a bit higher up.
That is what I'm afraid of. So, what is usual cut-off frequency for 3"-4" in car? I can afford any "sane" filter order.
Keeping mid-bass for less than an octave is not practical, and requires another amp and DSP channels. I like how sub plays 100-200. No wonder: in good box (not in metal can), with 4x radiation area...

BG Neo10???
Thanks, but way too large and exotic.

Today after reading spec I lean to Dayton ND105...
 

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That is what I'm afraid of. So, what is usual cut-off frequency for 3"-4" in car? I can afford any "sane" filter order.
Keeping mid-bass for less than an octave is not practical, and requires another amp and DSP channels. I like how sub plays 100-200. No wonder: in good box (not in metal can), with 4x radiation area...


Thanks, but way too large and exotic.

Today after reading spec I lean to Dayton ND105...
Exotic is what we are about here on Diyma... Thinking outside the box
 

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You can do the fullrangers, but I would really look at keeping the midbass in between. In a car I had a small pair of mids that didnt play low and my subs xovered around 250. everytime anything in the midbass would play your were pulled to the rear of the car and then back up front when the mids and tweets pick up. Lets just say, it didnt sound good and I didnt even know what I was listening for. Once I got a mid bass in my door and turned the xover lower on the subs, your ears werent pulled rear anymore. Im like you and cant say I knew a thing about SQ, but I can tell you the sound was all over the place until the midbass went in.
 

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Jroo - I think part of what your were experiencing was a 3" trying to keep up with a sub. Very difficult, expecially at high volumes,

From the experiments I have done you can localize at 200Hz...sometimes and on some music. How important it is up to you. I would have no concerns about doing it.

But what I would suggest is keeping your 6" in the doors and getting some really good large format tweeters and crossing the tweeters at 2000Hz or so. That should bring your stage up to the dash.

Morel MT-30 comes to mind. That should bring your stage up to the dash. The morels are very dynamic, great sounding and can take a lot of power.
 

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Jroo - I think part of what your were experiencing was a 3" trying to keep up with a sub. Very difficult, expecially at high volumes,

From the experiments I have done you can localize at 200Hz...sometimes and on some music. How important it is up to you. I would have no concerns about doing it.

But what I would suggest is keeping your 6" in the doors and getting some really good large format tweeters and crossing the tweeters at 2000Hz or so. That should bring your stage up to the dash.

Morel MT-30 comes to mind. That should bring your stage up to the dash. The morels are very dynamic, great sounding and can take a lot of power.
Mitchy, I'm not picking on you here, you just had the last post and it's easiest to quote from.

To the OP, 200hz is about the highest I would think you could cross your subs and not localize them, but even that would need to be on a STEEP filter (because if your subs plays any vocal cues, which can begin at/below 300hz, you WILL kill the illusion). If your midbass/midrange can keep up with the transition to subs, you CAN have everything sound like it's coming from up front for 98.7% of music. I have my own subs crossed at 150hz to 5.25" midranges (using an MS8) and the only time the image pulls to the rear is if the entire frequency being played is below 150hz (it doesn't take much coming from the front to pull it to the front).

What you do with 2-4khz is up to you, but you're not the only one who likes a cut there. 10-15db does seem a bit extreme, but it doesn't matter if it sounds good to you.

Back to Mitchy, I don't agree with his opinion to get a tweeter that plays low (and I don't even know if you want a tweeter). Again, this is just MY opinion, so take it for what it's worth. But I started with Morel Piccolo's in my pillars and crossed them low. The soundstage was high, but everything pulled to the left since that tweeter was MUCH closer to me. Height cues don't actually being until around 3khz+, so you can use most any tweeter crossed somewhere between 3-5khz to "trick" the stage height and still stay out of the vocal range. Since you don't like 2-4khz anyway, I would get a small tweeter that could take over 4khz+.

If you can fit it, I would get a regular 5.25" on the dash instead of the 4" (or put it down in the kicks). The lower you can cross your subs, the lower the risk of the image pulling to the rear. You can get a 5.25" down to 100-150hz probably. A 5.25" also begins to "beam" at around 2.2khz which would give you the natural attenuation you like. You can cross the tweeter at 4khz and you have a good dip in the FR without ever having to manipulate it via DSP.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Guys, getting low-playing twitter will not help me. The main problem with my current setup is that I don't like how my midbass plays. Let's say, from 200Hz till 2000kHz there is no single octave I like. We all know that speakers in doors are evil. The lower speaker on door the "evilles" it become. Here is my closest mid+sub FR measured with myself sitting in and mic placed near ear:


Keep in mind, it already LPassed at 2kHz 2-nd order LR. Sure, I need to cut 1kHz 10db! Along with 350 and 2500.

About localization. As I said, I've got sub _in_ the cabin. By moving it from the hatchback's boot I've got really good results: 70Hz dip disappears; boot not playing anymore, increased "sensitivity". To be honest, I didn't try to cross sub more than 100Hz while in the boot. But now I can blend it at 200Hz (with 30db/octave acoustic order) almost perfectly (taking in account I've got a null at this frequency).

I know my situation cries for 3-way. And you are right - I'll keep my midbasses physically in doors until I see the new speakers can/can not handle 200Hz.
 

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pionkej - No offense taken.

Andy W. wrote this in post 2390 of the "JBL's MS-8 prossesor!" thread:


Originally Posted by rain27
Andy,
What is your opinion on the lowest frequency a tweeter should play at when installed far from the midbass in a 2way set up? There is some debate that a tweeter should not be played lower than 4k if the mid is low in the door and the tweeter is in the sail panel, a pillar, or dash.

Andy's response - When setting the xover on the MS-8, I'd like to what limits to be mindful of. Depends on how big the midbass driver is. If it's a 6", then 2kHz or even lower is helpful in trying to keep the low pass for the midrange as low as possible so it won't be used where the dispersion is narrow. That'll give you better similarity between the on-axis and off axis frequency response. If it's a standard 1" tweeter driven by lots of power, then that's not a wise choice because you'll probably blow it up. Choosing the crossover is a matter of driver safety first, directivity and a match to the next smallest driver second, and trying to shape the response third. IF you have an EQ, then that's the better tool for response shaping if moving the crossover around compromises the first to criteria.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor-96.html#post1015409

So the reason for the low crossover is power response. The reason for a large format tweeter is so you don't blow the tweeter up with the low xo and lots of power. And my thinking is if you have room for a midrange on the pillars then you have room for a large format tweeter.

My midbasses are in the rear doors and crossed at 300Hz. On some music, especially when you have low sustained notes you can tell the sound is coming from the rear. It only bothers me very slightly. My friends that are NOT car audio enthusiasts like it for the surround feel. But i am running an MS-8 and this may not apply to all setups.
 

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pionkej - No offense taken.

Andy W. wrote this in post 2390 of the "JBL's MS-8 prossesor!" thread:


Originally Posted by rain27
Andy,
What is your opinion on the lowest frequency a tweeter should play at when installed far from the midbass in a 2way set up? There is some debate that a tweeter should not be played lower than 4k if the mid is low in the door and the tweeter is in the sail panel, a pillar, or dash.

Andy's response - When setting the xover on the MS-8, I'd like to what limits to be mindful of. Depends on how big the midbass driver is. If it's a 6", then 2kHz or even lower is helpful in trying to keep the low pass for the midrange as low as possible so it won't be used where the dispersion is narrow. That'll give you better similarity between the on-axis and off axis frequency response. If it's a standard 1" tweeter driven by lots of power, then that's not a wise choice because you'll probably blow it up. Choosing the crossover is a matter of driver safety first, directivity and a match to the next smallest driver second, and trying to shape the response third. IF you have an EQ, then that's the better tool for response shaping if moving the crossover around compromises the first to criteria.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor-96.html#post1015409

The reason for the low crossover is power response and the 'naturalness' (I just made that word up) of the sound. The reason for a large format tweeter is so you don't blow the tweeter up and it you have room for a midrange on the pillars then you have room for a large format tweeter.
All of that information is correct and I agree with it (to a degree). The reason he is suggesting a low crossover point to a 6" midbass is because as frequency goes up and dispersion narrows (beaming) you will run into "uneveness" at the crossover point. Let's say you cross at 4khz, a 6.5" woofer is beaming at this piont and the tweeter is still omnidirectional. What that means for the listener is that as you move around, the 'naturalness' changes.

You really have 3 options at that point:

The first is to lower the tweeter crossover point as Andy suggested. If you are running 3-way active, it is usually the easiest option. I discussed the problems with this option above.

Second option is to use a waveguide. Look at the JBL 660GTi set, that waveguide for the tweeter serves a specific purpose. It is used to have the tweeter match the BEAMING directivity of the woofer at the crossover point. This is probably the best option if running 3-way active.

The third option is to use a smaller driver (like the OP wants to do). A smaller driver will start to beam much later and therefore doesn't need a tweeter crossed low to match the directivity. You can do this either by going to a 4-way setup or using the "Augmented Wideband" approach.

I personally prefer option 2, 3, or a combination of both over #1. I think Andy would agree (which is why the GTi setup is that way), but he was basically stating (based on the question asked) that he feels matching directivity from tweeter to woofer is the lesser of two evils when compared to staging being pulled left or right.
 

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I agree with everything you said. I was really speaking to my suggestion of having/leaving a 6" in the door and using a large format tweeter in the pillars. Which is not what he wants to do.

Which is why I agree with everything you said.
 

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I agree with everything you said. I was really speaking to my suggestion of having/leaving a 6" in the door and using a large format tweeter in the pillars. Which is not what he wants to do.

Which is why I agree with everything you said.
Gotcha. :D

I'm glad we're on the same page and I'm glad you didn't take it personally. I also agree with what you said and simply wanted to point out there were other good options out there.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Ok, did some modeling in WinISD. Looks not too bad at all... please let me know if I miss something...

The logic is: I don't know the absolute SPL I need, but I know current level I listening to, so I can compare.
The first graph shows SPL of current 6" driver (Wavecor) and planned 4" (ND105). Each in own "closed q=0.7" box. Input power tuned that first plays 100db at 100Hz and latter plays 100db at 200Hz.

Next is Cone excursion:

As we can see, ND105 will play 200Hz with as about half excursion that Wavecor have at 100Hz!
As long as I don't have any problem (distortion-wise) with Wavecors playing 100Hz, I expect no problems with ND105 at 200 at the same SPL!

The only obvious difference is Power. But power is cheap now?
 

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If you need a full range driver, the legatia L4 is the way to go. Hell, I plan to buy them and use them as rear fill since they require no power, (MS8) can easily power them and it covers your vocal range and then some! This can't be beat in such a small driver and low power.
 

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Ok, did some modeling in WinISD. Looks not too bad at all... please let me know if I miss something...

The logic is: I don't know the absolute SPL I need, but I know current level I listening to, so I can compare.
The first graph shows SPL of current 6" driver (Wavecor) and planned 4" (ND105). Each in own "closed q=0.7" box. Input power tuned that first plays 100db at 100Hz and latter plays 100db at 200Hz.

Next is Cone excursion:

As we can see, ND105 will play 200Hz with as about half excursion that Wavecor have at 100Hz!
As long as I don't have any problem (distortion-wise) with Wavecors playing 100Hz, I expect no problems with ND105 at 200 at the same SPL!

The only obvious difference is Power. But power is cheap now?
Seeing those graphs, where would you put your HP for the ND105? Set your HP on WinISD and see what it does for 200Hz and your targeted 100dB
You need to watch your excursion plot so that Xmax stays below max for that particular driver.

Kelvin
 

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the idea of full range and "point sourcing" has bothered me as well. I had fantasies over the Seas Exotics or even the Excel CoAx. However, the only thing that drove me away from full ranges is that you need to have a big box which is very difficult to put it high in the pillar.

The closest thing i could think off that plays near full range suitable in cars is the BEWITH. Their speakers doesnt come in 3 way, all in 2 way form. Their tweeters plays from 350Hz to 30Khz while their midbass could go down like a sub. Ive heard news in Japan some competition cars are equiped with only 4 speakers. No sub. No dedicated midrange. Needless to say, it sounds awesome.

BEWITH
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The closest thing i could think off that plays near full range suitable in cars is the BEWITH. Their speakers doesnt come in 3 way, all in 2 way form. Their tweeters plays from 350Hz to 30Khz while their midbass could go down like a sub.
Just checked the link. Their twitters are 50mm, crossover set to 800Hz. Sad, but they can't beat the physics.
 
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