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As far as sub, the jeep by far. The Boston g5 10" is in a vented enclosure getting 600+watts while the sundown sd3 10 sealed in .7 cuft getting the 550 from the zapco. The boston is also more efficient. Id be running the g5 10 if it would fit in the slim enclosure I have, but a SI BMV III 12 just showed up today that I plan to install in the sd3 10"s location as it will fit and Im all for more cone area.

I took a long drive today and while the SD3 10 is a fine sub, one 10 doesnt have the output I like (not far off though) and has a hard time keeping up with my front stage when louder. It just seems to plateau due to the underhung design but is a good sounding sub. If I had 2 of them, or even a 12" no problem. But the boston g5 is one of my favorite all time car subs and in 1.3cuft @32hz sounds amazing.

I didnt try to hook up the vented g5 to the zapco but Im sure the difference between the PDR mono and bridged zapco amps would be very small. It really needs no more that 450-500 watts.

So Im replacing the sd3 10. first going to try the SI 12" that showed up today and I also have a BNIB Nakamichi 12 about 25 years old that is an amazing sounding sub as well that fits in the same enclosure as well. Just half the excursion of the SI, and 300 watts rms but buttery smooth subs those Naks. Also have an Alumapro RX SQ 12". So moving to a single 12. Off the zapco. All the above fit the enclosure and amp power

The Jeep is more of a work car that I swap stuff I have and try new things in. Has more room and Im less picky about perfection. Subaru is my SQ focused car.

If nothing provides the output I seek in the subaru, Ill just do some glassing and put the g5 and matching pr @ 30hz in the .5 they require and I would have more than I need. But effort
 

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Discussion Starter #82
Thanks tyroneshoes, I will keep my eyes pealed for any of those Excelons, although I don't really need anymore amplifiers. In fact I think I need to sell some of these off as I have too many. As for monoblock amplifiers, the most impressive I have experienced so far would be a Rockford Fosgate Power 1500 class BD. I swapped that with an Infinity K1000 and noticed a difference right away with an SA12 subwoofer. It was probably attributable to the constant power design or maybe just more power overall but it impressed me. I wish you were closer as I'd love to hear some of those amps you have.

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #84
Update: the Pioneer D8604 seems to have an issue with channels 1 & 2. My tweeter levels were all over the place, sometimes cutting in and out and I thought it was a loose connection. I changed the RCA and all was good for a while but today after a long tuning session the tweeters started doing this again. Just before they were noticeably losing power (by ear) I was having trouble level matching them to the door woofers. First they were good, then they were too low, then I readjusted them and they were too high again. Seems to be related to how hot the amplifier was getting and the hotter it got, the worse it got. Measured 112 degrees on the amplifier with 95 degrees in the truck (hot day). I swapped it out for the DLS for now and finished the tuning and the tweeters are holding their levels now.

So we’ll see what happens as it could be the DSP but I think not. If the problem doesn’t come back than I’m going to blame the D8604 for what I call, you get what you pay for qaulity. Great sounding amplifier but the the qaulity of the components inside seem suspect to me. Could also just be a random case where I got unlucky. I’ll give it a few weeks and see what happens.
 

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I wish I never sold my Kenwood x4r. So I have a question, do you guys believe the Kenwood excelon amps are better than the new pioneer gm-dx975 5 channel?
And I have a pioneer gm-x924 class A that I. Curious as to how it would stack up against the other amps you tested.
 

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Discussion Starter #86
Funny, my brain must be playing tricks on me because I like the way my GB10 tweeters sounded with the Pioneer over the DLS. Just went through some songs on my 1 hour commute to work to come up with this opinion. Will have to play with the tune some more to make sure it’s not that.
 

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I have the Kenwood XR900-5 and I really like it as well. I have it on my midranges, tweeters, and sub and it provides plenty of power and to my ears sounds very good. I had my mids and tweeters on a Alpine PDX F4 and I cant say I noticed hardly any difference in the sound. The only complaint I have with this model is the horrible screw heads for the speaker and power terminals. It is very easy to strip the heads so you have to be extremely careful with them. I had to send my first one back to Crutchfield because of this problem.
 

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I wish I never sold my Kenwood x4r. So I have a question, do you guys believe the Kenwood excelon amps are better than the new pioneer gm-dx975 5 channel?
And I have a pioneer gm-x924 class A that I. Curious as to how it would stack up against the other amps you tested.
Yes I prefer the Excelon to the pioneers. I know theres a limited pioneer version with updated caps but its $150 more and I have not heard it. Kenwood still uses Nichion.

That Pioneer gm-x924 is a class a/b but with class a bias...Great amp.
 

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I've been arguing that Amps sound different for forever now. Most budget amps have an edginess that I find cant be tuned out. I mean yes you can tune it out but it will cost you clarity to do so.
I really loved my old Focal amps. They had a lush smooth sound and could be tuned bright without ever being harsh or brittle. I lost those to a flood and wound up with jl hd's. The hd's arent bad amps but they cannot deliver that ultra smooth top end I like . I've never owned anything of a higher tier than these 2 amps and that makes me curious just how good can amps get ? I liked the jl slash amps but had super limited dsp at the time. A p80 head unit with left and right 15 band was. I hated the Xd amps even with full dsp.
 

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Yeah. I used to think it was all psycho-acoustics until I had the chance to a/b them indoors with high end speakers so its the exact environment and drivers on axis and no ambient noise. The tweeters on my ref speakers are vifa xt rings so they extend far past my audible range. Its very clear amps sound different, but the difference may not be significant for most to acknowledge or value.

there is a point of diminishing returns but if I can fit it, Im always going to prefer a/b on my full range speakers. Even the current Sony GS 4 channel is a small class a/b that sounds excellent. The Audio Designs ADS60.4 I have is very impressive.

Class D can sound as good as A/B,but not better than a well designed a/b amp...On this site the mosconi zeros are a good example of an a/b amp that will sound better than 90% of any amplifiers and all class d amps. But for me, old school zapcos. The zapco set below were my all time fav amps. Like someone else said...Oz Audio and zapco were magical together as was the focal Utopia and zapco studio 300x and 150s or the Z/Comp Zaps amp seen below .I went to an old school Directed pre sellout 5 channel to have an all in one chassis amp and the focals became brittle. Back in the zapcos. Story of my Car audio history. Aways chasing the Oz Audio/Zapco VW Scirroco system I had in the 90s.

I have a Malaysian Clarion/Addzest Pro Audio amp on the way to test.

Some pics of it. Also a/b with class a bias.
 

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Ok I have a question, I recognize that Kenwood amps seems to have more cone control over woofers. I attribute that to damping factor and the sigma drive circuit. So my question is...what Kenwood amp or any amp is tour preferred amp of choice for powering a sub in a sq setup. Sub would be in a sealed enclosure. Basically past or present amp. I'm curious to what you guys think esp with Kenwood amps
 

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Discussion Starter #92
Manish, there is no proof that certain Kenwood amplifiers have better cone control over others. Everything in this thread including most of my information has mostly been subjective and anecdotal information. All we know is that not all amplifiers sound the same but we have no good data to back this up and show why that is. Furthermore the debate about damping factor has been beaten to death and if you really did through all the misinformation you should find that damping factor isn’t really a factor with today’s amplifiers when you look at everything else that affects the speaker’s cone control such as the actual mechanical suspension of the speaker itself.

Also, in my testing with the amplifiers in this price range I could not see class A/B having any advantage over Class D amplifiers. There is no measurable hard evidence that shows any of the class A/B amplifiers doing anything better than the class D amplifiers. It’s all anecdotal information here so it’s not worth much other than we know not all amplifiers sound the same. I have to tell myself this all the time because my brain wants to believe all the anecdotal information on the internet is all true.
 

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Yeah I have read the same post here as well. But my in a few amps there seems to be a difference. I know I can definitely tell a difference between my Kenwood kac-1023 vs pretty much any other amp I have run including my old pg ms2.125 amps. Now between most class D amps, I agree 💯. But there is something to be said for a amp with a stout power supply. I guess I was too wordy but I was basically looking for what they felt was the best performing mono amp that didn't lose steam with extended low note passages.
 

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Discussion Starter #94
Yeah I have read the same post here as well. But my in a few amps there seems to be a difference. I know I can definitely tell a difference between my Kenwood kac-1023 vs pretty much any other amp I have run including my old pg ms2.125 amps. Now between most class D amps, I agree 💯. But there is something to be said for a amp with a stout power supply. I guess I was too wordy but I was basically looking for what they felt was the best performing mono amp that didn't lose steam with extended low note passages.
Didn't realize you were talking monoblocks so in that case I 100% agree that a stout power supply definitely makes a difference. I can tell a difference too with my Rockford Fosgate Power bd1500 vs cheaper conventional amps.
 

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I agree with both the above posts. Except, I am pretty convinced that certain class ab amps will sound better on full range.

Now the Kenwood KAC-x1r Im selling is a very nice sounding mono amp that has dual power supplies. As far as the control aspect, kenwood has a dual sigma negative feedback circuit that seems to help, but not a major difference. And most quality amps do have a neg feedback circuit built in. The japanese OS Kenwood kac-1023 you have is just a fantastic amp overall. And Id be using it if you could.

In your sig, I see you have a Pioneer PRS-X720. Thats a fantastic amp. is that currently powering your subs? If so, I dont think youll get much of an improvement from swapping that, unless the current draw is too much.

Like JCSAudio I also am very fond of RF amplifiers on subs and I would run one of them if I was was given the option between the punch or power RF vs current kenwood excelon amps. I have never had an issue with the kenwood amps, but RF just makes very solid sub amps and they are tanks. So both of the subjective listeners agree there.

The current kenwoods excelons are solid, but not like the old Japanese versions. Those are some of my all time favorite amps
 

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So currently, I have a prs720, mtx2300x, Kenwood 1023, and a pair of pioneer gm-x922 amps. I have the amps and speakers listed in my signature but nothing Installed. As a matter of fact I sold one of the 15" subs. I haven't decided on which sub to run as I have a pair of pioneer ts-w12prs, infinity kappa 120.90, and that 1 rf T1 15". But I'm waiting on the new SI SQL-15 to drop unless I come across a JBL W15GTI. So yeah the 1023 is a option and so is the prs amp. Just unclear what I want to run for subs. And the RF 1500 is now on my radar if you guys think that is a superior amp to the ones I have already
 

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So if it's so obvious, how come no one ever claimed Richard Clark's $10k prize? Wasn't he the one who laid out the challenge to try to identify differences? Or was it cables and not amps? Been a few years... I might be misremembering.
 

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So if it's so obvious, how come no one ever claimed Richard Clark's $10k prize? Wasn't he the one who laid out the challenge to try to identify differences? Or was it cables and not amps? Been a few years... I might be misremembering.
Funny because I just listened to the podcast with him on there yesterday, super interesting. It WAS amps by the way.
 

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At the Bloomington SQ event last September Benny Z had everybody in suspense and never came through with the answer.

He said Richard Clarke has an ongoing proposition where if the listener can tell or guess which amplifier is playing he'll give that person $10,000 cash.

This intrigued me and I pushed Ben to tell us more but he told us we'd need to listen to the upcoming SQology podcast for further explanation.........well he never brought it up on the podcasts since that I know of......:(
 

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At the Bloomington SQ event last September Benny Z had everybody in suspense and never came through with the answer.

He said Richard Clarke has an ongoing proposition where if the listener can tell or guess which amplifier is playing he'll give that person $10,000 cash.

This intrigued me and I pushed Ben to tell us more but he told us we'd need to listen to the upcoming SQology podcast for further explanation.........well he never brought it up on the podcasts since that I know of......:(
Here you go:
SQOLOGY Car Audio Podcast
feat. Richard Clark - Autosound 2000
 
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