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I have a 97 toyota supra. I just installed a stereo system in there. I am using 300/4 (only using 75X2 for now) and 500/1 JL audio amps with two Ascendant Audio 12's. For mids and highs I installed MBQuart PSD216 6.5 seperates. The 6.5's are installed in the doors (with sound deadening) mounted in custom brackets behind the stock door panel and stock speaker grill. I mounted the tweeters in the dash where the stock tweeters where located from the factory.

I am very extatic with the subs (sealed box) and feel the mids are ok but could be better. My real issue is the Tweeters. They are so freaking HARSH!!!!!!!! I listen to my system for 5 minutes and my ears go numb. Even the stock tweeters sounded better to me simply because they where warm and not so harsh. Researching on this forum it seems the LPG 25nfa tweeters will have the sound I am looking for. I realize that the Quart tweeters could sound better if I mount them into the kick pods but I still feel I would be happier with the lpg's. The transition from the mids to the highs does not seem good at all. There are some particular harsh sounds that just seem to bounce off the dash from the tweeters.

My question is will using the lpg's allow me to possibly run them in the dash? Also, my quart midbass driver has a 6.5 inch mounting depth. I am using the crossovers that come with the PSD's. I would switch to the CA18RNX midbass drivers in a heart beat but I do not feel I can accomidate the 3 inch mouting depth. My current 6.5's already are just barely missing the window. ( I may experiment with a solution for this in the future though).

For now I would like to know if switching to the lpgs could cure my issues with harshness even if i mount them in the dash. Also, how can I cross these over since I am sure the PSD crossovers are probably too low since they use a metal dome tweeter that can usually play lower. I would like to avoid going with an active crossover for now. I want the midbass and the tweeter to have as seamless of a transition as possible with what i have to work with. If the dash is a horrible idea, then what other mounting options should I condsider? the doors? the kicks? In the dash the tweets fire directly at the windshield. It is a pretty sloped windshield since it is a sports car. But as mentioned before the stock tweeters where mounted in the exact same place and never sounded harsh.

By the way I have to pull the dash to get these MBQuart tweets out and this takes a good 5 hours it is a major PITA. I may get the lpg's and just hook them up and place them near the dash mounting location to see if i can get a feel for how they will sound. I would still need to figure out how to cross the tweeters over around 3khz as a starting point.

Thankyou all in advance! I really appreciate all input.

-pete
 

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Although I do find the quart tweets to be a bit on the edgy, colored side I wouldn't by any means say they are extremely harsh and painful when utilized correctly. Because of that, I'm not sure if switching tweeters would help. It seems it maybe an issue that needs equalization, or proper level matching/integration to truly solve. That being said, it could just so happen that switching to say an Lpg silk dome may cure the problem for any number of reasons. As for speaker locations, it's pretty much trial and error. It's hard to say without having any experience with that vehicle, although I'd be wary of any dash mounting that recesses the speaker too far behind the panels.

If you can barely fit the MBQ mids you may have serious issues fitting the Seas. Are you using a 3/4" mdf baffle or just mounting it to the door's metal?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I have them mounted in an mdf baffle. It is not nearly 3/4 inch thick! It is deadened. I had a discussion with a friend who knows the door in my car quite well and we talked about using my existing baffle (maybe switching to a lexan baffle since it is stiffer) and mounting a spacer ring to them. Currently the driver is not centered in the speaker opening. Spacing it out may allow me to center the mid base driver in the existing door panel speaker opening and thus allow more room for the travel of the speaker. Right now with the offset mounting (required to clear the frame since it is so recessed) it is just barely enough room for speaker movement to clear the door panel. Also, I would need a new grill if we try this center mounting.

I don't think the dash mounting on the tweets is too far recessed. The stock tweeters where mounted there and did not have any harshness that is why I think a different tweeter may help the issue.

Once I get the tweets to work. If the solution is the lpg25's we may experiment with the Seas. If it works well we may try and design a component set based around these drivers and a crossover and inlude all the hardware to mount it in my particular car. Not sure if I will have the time to do this but it would help out a lot of people. So far i have not heard stunning mid bass out of a supra. I know with enough time and experimentation it can be done.

Do the Seas come with speaker grills? I really appreciate the help!

Thanks.
 

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I'm guessing the midbass problem is due to the doors themselves, not whatever you're putting in them. I drive a 94 Prelude, which is very similar in shape to a 97 Supra, and I find if you want much midbass or bass out of a 6.5" you have to get it from the rear speakers. Kind of a problem if you're into stage and stuff.

As far as replacing those tweeters, I have a hard time believing you have to take out the dash. I'm sure you're way ahead of me on this, but check on a Supra forum and see what people say about it.

Dan

P.S. By the way, if you want to ditch those components for a good price let me know. :wink:
 

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npdang said:
I'm not sure if switching tweeters would help. It seems it maybe an issue that needs proper level matching/integration...
Do you have the tweeters attenuated?

My a-pillar tweeters are attenuated 6dB to balance with the door drivers and still have a high stage.

Do the MBQ xovers have attenuation options?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Wow, i really appreciate the responses.

I can remove the stock tweeters w/o removing the dash but it requires destroying the tweeter, then you can mount the new one using the stock wiring from the top. I opted to remove the dash so that i could properly mount the new tweeters and run new wiring. If you install the tweeters from the top you can not mount them on the stock mounting brackets the way i did, you basically have to use glue or silicon to kind of just stick them in place.

Now that i have the quart tweets in the dash i am 99% sure i can not remove them w/o pulling the dash since they are bolted onto the brackets but i am going to try for sure. Even if i get them out through the top, then i will not be able to bolt the new tweeter in, i will have to stick it in when mounting from the top. So if i can remove the dash i may just go ahead and do that.

I played around with a lot of my settings some more and I think I am getting pretty decent midbass out of the drivers. I would not say the staging is perfect but the midbass is there.

I also found out the MBQuart PSD crossover is crossed over at 3.5Khz from mid to tweet. So this could actually work good with the lpg25 tweet i am considering.

The Quart crossovers do have attinuation and I have them set at -6dbs. I can can not attinuate them down farther than that and am still definitly having major issues with the tweets. I think an EQ would definetly help but i would like to get things closer on the install before messing with EQ'ing.

I ordered the lpg25's on friday they shoudl be here by end of next week. I am going to hook them up to the crossover with a long wire and try them out in a bunch of different locations in the car and see if mounting in the kicks, dash, or door will work the best. Also i will get a good idea of how they will sound compared to the Quart PSD tweets.

So I will keep you all posted. Again, thanks so much for the input.

-pete
 

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I was just experimenting with a set of QSD216's last night - the problem I found is that the crossover's that MB Quart made, while full of nice components, sound like crap. Even with the tweeter set to the lowest setting, they still overpowered the midbass. Plus, the midbass had some harsh resonance near the crossover point of 2400hz.

I had a JL Audio XR650 set laying around and tried the XR crossover with the QSD's and the result was amazing. The harshness was gone, the midbass resonance was gone, and the tweeter actually blended with the midbass instead of overpowering it.

I never tried the QSD's with an active system but from what I gathered on my bench, they seem like they would work best with a DIY crossover or active setup.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Z28SS said:
I was just experimenting with a set of QSD216's last night - the problem I found is that the crossover's that MB Quart made, while full of nice components, sound like crap. Even with the tweeter set to the lowest setting, they still overpowered the midbass. Plus, the midbass had some harsh resonance near the crossover point of 2400hz.

I had a JL Audio XR650 set laying around and tried the XR crossover with the QSD's and the result was amazing. The harshness was gone, the midbass resonance was gone, and the tweeter actually blended with the midbass instead of overpowering it.

I never tried the QSD's with an active system but from what I gathered on my bench, they seem like they would work best with a DIY crossover or active setup.
That is a very interesting piece of information. Thanks!
 

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I have an update on where I am at now. I recieved the lpg25 tweets and hooked them up to my the MB Quart passive crossover networks. The first thing I did was try them setting on the dash just above the quart tweeters. The harshness was gone! Instantly I noticed that the imaging was not too great and the tweeters did not seem to hand off to the mids(installed in the doors) well when the tweeters where located in the dash.

Second place I tried these was in the doors mounted about 4 inches from the midbass driver. Harshness was still gone and but still the imaging had a lot to be disired as assessed from the driver's seat. I think I still need to play around with the angles on this and see if I can make the doors sound better.

Third location I tried was in the kick panels mounted at an angle. Each tweeter was pointed at the opposite passanger. ie the driverside tweet was pointed at the passanger and vice versa. The first thing I noticed was the sound stage was still quite high. It was about the level of the dash or just above it. Second thing I noticed is that from the drivers seat the imaging was MUCH better. The tweets seemed to blend with the mids much better when located in the kicks. Also, for some reason the imaging on the mids seemed much improved even though thier location did not change! This was the only tweeter location I was able to keep the balance control on the head unit exactly in the middle. The major drawback I had was when I hopped in the passanger location and found that the imaging was not nearly as good. I drive by myself about 50% of the time so it does not matter that much but I would love to be able to get the imaging good for both the passanger and driver. Basically it sounds more like the the treble is comming from the right side of the car instead of both directions equally. This is the same effect I had on the driver side when mounting in the dash or the door. So the kicks seem to be the best location by far but I am wondering how to fix the imaging for the passanger.

I thought about mounting the tweets in the kicks and having them fire directly inwards instead of pointed at the opposite passanger and maybe attinuating them higher. Also I thought of maybe mounting the tweets int he A pillars and pointing them towards the opposite pasanger.

What do you all think? Any ideas on how I can solve this issues. It seems getting the imaging right for both passangers is pretty tough. Also, I think the reason the passanger is not getting as good of imaging is because the steering column is blocking some of the sound from the driver side tweeter.

Any more help would be greatly appreciated.

-pete

P.S. On a side note, I have a feeling the lpg25's may not be handling the power as easily as the mb quart tweets, but I am finding the lpg25 tweets to be much more pleasing to listen to. I have concerns about any differences in impedence between these two tweets. I have not found the impedence on either tweeter yet.
 

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so you still running the PSD mids?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
DearS said:
so you still running the PSD mids?
Yes, Still running the PSD mids. If I get the location of the tweeter decent they seem to blend very well with the lpg25 tweets. The lpg tweets don't seem to play as loud before starting to distort ast the PSD tweets. But they sure do sound a lot more pleasant to the ear.

Played around some more last night with the locations, tried the A pillars and messed with the locations in the doors some more with the help of a freind. This time I sat in the passanger seat and when I got the imaging right from the passanger seat it seemed to be good fromt he drivers seat also. I realize the placement and angle on the tweeters is CRITICAL for optimal imaging. Now my issues have been reduced to two things. 1) finding a tweeter that sounds similar to the LPG25 tweet but can play a little louder before distorting. and 2) finding a way to mount the tweets in the door and still achieve the exact angle I found that gives good imaging to both the passanger and driver. Hmmm looks like that is going to be a tough challange. Maybe some of you can suggest a similar sounding tweet that may do the trick and has plenty of clean mounting options that will allow me to achieve the correct angle.

Thanks!
 

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did you know that by placing 8-ohm speakers to a crossover designed for 4-ohm, you drop the crossover frequency in half. so if it was 2600hz its now 1300hz. atleast I think thats how it works.

since the original tweeter is 6 ohms, and the lpg is 8 ohms. ohms are different with frequency, but still. its a 25% drop in ohms. the crossover is really working at or near 1800hz. versus the original 2500hz for the MB quart tweeter. I think this is why you have early distortion.

every time you cut the frequency down in half, the tweeter must do 4 times the work. so at a crossover 1800hz point the tweeter is already doing 2 twice the work it does at 2500hz. and thats not even considering the lower frequencies the tweeter deals with anyways. I think If you push the crossover to 2500hz, you'll be able to use twice the power on the tweeter you're using now.
 

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DearS said:
did you know that by placing 8-ohm speakers to a crossover designed for 4-ohm, you drop the crossover frequency in half. so if it was 2600hz its now 1300hz. atleast I think thats how it works.

since the original tweeter is 6 ohms, and the lpg is 8 ohms. ohms are different with frequency, but still. its a 25% drop in ohms. the crossover is really working at or near 1800hz. versus the original 2500hz for the MB quart tweeter. I think this is why you have early distortion.

every time you cut the frequency down in half, the tweeter must do 4 times the work. so at a crossover 1800hz point the tweeter is already doing 2 twice the work it does at 2500hz. and thats not even considering the lower frequencies the tweeter deals with anyways. I think If you push the crossover to 2500hz, you'll be able to use twice the power on the tweeter you're using now.
I think I have the general idea of what you are saying here. Although the MB Quart PSD crossovers according to the MB Quart are crossed over at 3500 hz. So according to your logic I think that would mean the lpg tweet in my system is being crossed over down around 2600hz which is still a lot lower than what i wanted. I was hoping to have it crossed over around 3500 hz where the mid leaves off. hmmm, i guess now I have two choices. Either I can look for a 6 ohm tweet that sounds like the lpg tweets or I can have a set of passive crossovers made that will cross both the mid range and tweeters over around 3500hz.

Do you know if the MB quart mid is 6 ohms also? I wish I would have known that the lpg25 tweets where 8 ohms. But they where worth getting just to hear how nice they sound. Hmmmm.

Any suggestions on a good fix would really help.

Thanks,
Pete
 

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Do not forget that driver's also have their own natural, built in rolloffs...

Also, it's not quite as simple as finding a "4ohm" driver, as every 4 ohm speaker has a different impedance curve that will change the response of your crossover!
 

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the mb quart mid is 4ohms, but read the above.

also when I did a google search about the crossover point, it says 2500hz everywhere.
 

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DearS said:
the mb quart mid is 4ohms, but read the above.

also when I did a google search about the crossover point, it says 2500hz everywhere.
Hmmm, 2500hz is more like what i would have expected for a metal dome tweeter since they can play lower, but i called mb quart and they said 3500hz. so i have no idea now. maybe i will just rip the whole component set out and work on finding a different matched set.

I could also try and see if the QSD metal dome with rubber surround is available if it will work with the PSD crossover. Not sure.

Any suggestions? I got to get rid of this harsh sound and after hearing the lpgs the harshness was gone and it sounded so much better. just have the power handling issues.

I am kind of stuck on what to do. I don't want to go active due to the amplifier configuration I already have installed. I think maybe switching the components to something high quality with a nice tweeter will do the trick for me, but I was hoping to switch the tweets and solve the problem that way.

Thanks,
Pete
 

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I say build a passive crossover, or buy a cheap seperate one. you can google up making passive crossovers. perhaphs npdang has a frequency and impendance graph for those tweeters you have. and if you plan on switching mids, a Seas mid seems to fit well for those tweeters. their also a lot cheaper than the Mb quart mids I've seen.
 

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I wouldn't exactly describe the LPG's as having good power handling... they are nice though- I am very happy with my set. I had to switch from a 50Wx2 RMS to a 25Wx2 RMS amp, and the 25W will still give these tweets a browbeating. Also, I would have to say that anything under 3k with them is sort of pushing it at any respectable volume. I can't nearly stand mine under 4k and I am currently running them 5k/12db-O. If you run them any lower I would suggest a steep x-over slope. OTOH, I don't have plans to switch them out anytime soon :)
 

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Z28SS said:
I was just experimenting with a set of QSD216's last night - the problem I found is that the crossover's that MB Quart made, while full of nice components, sound like crap. Even with the tweeter set to the lowest setting, they still overpowered the midbass. Plus, the midbass had some harsh resonance near the crossover point of 2400hz.

I had a JL Audio XR650 set laying around and tried the XR crossover with the QSD's and the result was amazing. The harshness was gone, the midbass resonance was gone, and the tweeter actually blended with the midbass instead of overpowering it.

I never tried the QSD's with an active system but from what I gathered on my bench, they seem like they would work best with a DIY crossover or active setup.
but they look good! :oops:
 

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I have some QM comps, the QSD are their replacements. my mids are not clear at some frequencies, I did remove the crossover, but it didnt change anything. I'm happy with the tweeter though. well I'll continue to improve my listening skills and be more honest, and see what develops.
 
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