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New School Soundstream gut pics

37K views 190 replies 40 participants last post by  cleansoundz 
#1 ·
I just picked up this SS Reference 1.100 today and thought someone might like to see under the hood.

 
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#9 ·
Wow - then I must be incorrect. The vents on some of the capacitors around the audio output stage (near the diagonally mounted resistors) appear to be punctured with some kind of crust around some of them. I noted just one bulged, but it could be the camera angle.

Normally capacitors don't have any kind of holes in the vents - a breach here indicates they have failed during a test or were damaged in manufacturing.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Gut pics of the REF 4.760

I did find that one of the 3amps, was of a previous year or generation
1 had PMC-480-11 and the other 2 had PMC-480-12 , on the pc-board, other than that, the components seem to be identical.
This is a typical A/B amp, but interestingly, the output drivers are heatsinked right with the outputs and there is a good amount of HF compensation around them. The outputs are beefy TO-247 size.

You don't see this sort of good engineering in car amplifiers much anymore. At first blush, I am impressed. There is a question of the heatsink clamps used - there should really be another pair of screws per clamp so that the output transistors are evenly clamped. But other than this minor detail, I think it's a nice design.

I'm glad to see that the engineers chose to mix through hole and SMD technology where appropriate. Some high dissipation applications cannot be replaced with SMD - even if it looks good on paper. And bias pots!

I am definitely impressed! :)
 
#13 ·
First off I apologize to everyone for my knee-jerk reaction to envisionelec's post. I am gonna open it back up and take a closer look. Obviously I'm hoping it's just my lack of photography skills that's causing those caps to look faulty but we'll see.
amitaF, I have a 4.760 as well and IIRC the layout on those is quite different from the 1.1000. I have had the 4.760 powering my front stage for about 6 months and really like it. If everything is ok with the new amp it will be powering my subs (no ****, right?) and I will post up some photos of the finished product when it's done.
Happy almost New Year to all!
 
#18 ·
Well after opening the amp back up and taking a close look at those capacitors I'm afraid envisionelec is right! The damn things are leaking out of the top and many of them have holes right in the center of the top of them where the four "seams" meet. I swear I think I would rather go through the trouble of replacing them myself rather than the major hassle of returning it and waiting for a replacement. I imagine what it's going to cost me to ship it back to where I got it would cover a large part of the cost of replacements. envisionelec, what do you think about this? Am I an idiot to even consider this course of action? Please advise. As you can imagine I am quite bummed.
Thanks for your help and to quote Rodger Waters, "...amazing powers of observation".
 
#20 ·
I absolutely wouldn't touch it. Get Grizz Archer in here to see what needs to be done. The capacitors brands (DKE) are known to be very cheap caps and knock offs of United Chemicon. This is exactly the kind of thing that will kill a good amp...or brand for that matter. The placement for these caps is critical due to the commutation currents in the output stage of this Class G amp.
They have got to go and you should NOT be the one footing any of the bill!

Aaron
 
#23 ·
that stinks that they would tout the return of the Reference line which look really nice and have good numbers with them and then use cheap components on something as inexpensive as the caps. I was seriously considering getting a couple of these, but now I am very undecided now.

Ibiza or AmitaF

have either of you opened up one of the class A/B amps to see if the same crappy caps are used in those? If so, it would seem they would probably suffer the same issue unless it was jsut a bad batch of caps, but quality control must suck because I noticed the same thing envision did when I looked at the pics.

The original caps in some of my 15 to 20 year old amps look in better condition than those.
 
#26 ·
I agree that the new SS reference amps are well designed (I have the 4.760 and 2.640) but receiving a new product (might not be a legit dealer but...) with failing caps is unacceptable. I would be willing to bet that the 1.1000 Ibiza has is not one of the earlier models. Is there a way to tell if said amp was the latest or some developmental version?
 
#30 ·
Okay so here is what pour engineer said...

"Hi Grizz,

Those caps are not really under a lot of stress and there are a ton of them, so it is unlikely that they would fail, but it sounds like he received the amp like that. It is possible that there was bad production QC on the factory's part.

I would like to see if the rail voltage in that particular amp is maybe too high, which would cause that problem. If they were bad already when he got it before he hooked it up, teh caps definietlty went bad during factory's burn in and they did not notice it, and passed the amp.

Question how are the 1000's and REFs in general holding out in the field?

Yes, Iv'e see user envisionelec/aaron active on other forums also. He seems to like the general layout etc., which is a positive.

BTW I would really like you guys to consider Class D for the REF mono amps when the new factory does them - let's discuss."

So, obviously something is wrong. It could be our mistake, who knows? But either way, assuming the place you got it from is legit, they will swap it out. But please ask them to put your name on it with the problem when they send it back to us because our engineer wants to see it himself!
 
#33 · (Edited)
Okay so here is what pour engineer said...

<snip>

Yes, Iv'e see user envisionelec/aaron active on other forums also. He seems to like the general layout etc., which is a positive.

I've not always been kind to many manufacturers. :blush:

It's definitely a step up from the usual. I'm intrigued enough to want to peruse the schematic on that REF 1000.1, but I'm pretty certain that would never happen.

I'm not seeing commutation diodes on this design; is it actually Class H (variable power supply voltage)?
 
#35 · (Edited)
Despite appearances on the forums, I'm actually a fairly even-handed critic. It's just that there has been so much garbage made in the past 10 years that it has been hard to be supportive of the transformation of some of these companies' products. I know some people feel I should just leave well enough alone - and they're probably right. I don't force anyone to agree with what I observe. Me? I am always learning...I don't know everything - not even close. I just pay attention.

From a design standpoint, building a car amplifier is a nice amount of work. What isn't hard is replicating a design over and over, ad infinitum. I'm happy to see a truly different design that hasn't tried to bend the laws of physics and/or thermodynamics.

I like the departure into Class G for one reason - It's not Class D. There are so many problems with Asian-sourced Class D amplifiers. They're very hard on capacitors which are already very cheap to begin with. Their filter magnetics are often undersized and driven to saturation as they heat up to their Curie temperature and are then permanently damaged. And then they put a 30 cent fan to blow slightly-less hot air on the inductors!

Class G is less efficient than Class D at all but the lowest levels and almost as efficient near maximum power. But, I genuinely suspect that so many of these cheap Class D's have such terrible losses that their efficiency is probably overstated.

I think it was the right move to go Class G. I just hope the capacitor/power supply issue is identified and isolated quickly.
 
#38 ·
After seeing this thread, I took the time to open up both my 2.640 and 4.760. No cap problems whatsoever. Everything looked nice and clean, no bulging or venting of any kind.

I also agree that it's been very nice to see a SS rep on the board and addressing potential issues very quickly and openly. Gives me a lot more faith in Epsilon.
 
#39 ·
Just a quick update. I contacted the distributor I bought the amp from and explained the situation. They were extremely accommodating and said they would send me out a new one as soon as I shipped the defective one back. They should receive the amp from me today so I am hoping I have a replacement by mid-week next. I will post up some pics of the replacement when it arrives. I pray with better results this time.:cool:

Again guys, thanks for everything.
 
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