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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4239
http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4209
http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2748

Someone brought up this sub in an earlier thread and i've been reading quite a bit about it since then....and T/S Specs & pricing have been released too..those monsters have some impressive specs and potential, it seems, but i was wondering what some of the more technically inclined dudes thought here about it

Pros: Craziest BL curve i have ever seen, massive amounts of linear excursion (38mm xmax one way IIRC!), copper shorting rings in the motor, which combined with the motor, we are probably talking crazy serious low distortion even at high output levels? Rigid cone, gorgeous good looks

Cons: Insanely huge box requirements. Low sensitivity, Sealed and/or ported enclosures ars virtually impossible for car audio, which leaves only one option: IB. Or more like a leaky sealed enclosure the size of the car's boot since box requirements are soooo high :) T/S specs seem encouraging: Qts is very high, and Fs is reasonably low, and displacement is of course very high which gives me the impression that it would be an ideal psuedo-IB sub though (does my reasoning make sense?). Cost of the sub is also very expensive ($500US +). But by far my biggest concern (aside from IB suitability) is the inductance...2.5mH thereabouts for 12 and 15 inch versions which is more than double that of the Brahma. Does anyone here know the formula to calculate what frequency a driver starts rolling off on the high end from voice coil inductance?

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts on the woofer were :)
 

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I am worried, for the longest time Mike made them sound like W7 killers then when they come out he says they are meant primarily for the home? And there isnt much of a way around it but the parameters SUCK as does the price. Id feel much safer just getting a 12w7 for that price or a tad less (and im not a big jl fan) Im just having a hard time trying to figure out just which market Soundsplinter is going after. I am beginning to see why these were never released as the design has been around for quite some time :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Aha, i found the discussion relating to Le and high frequency rolloff. Kudos to the main man werewolf for actually taking time out to discuss this a long while back on ECA:

http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=106037

More specifically:

"What's the cutoff frequency of this low-pass filter? It's simply the voice coil resistance divided by the voice coil inductance :

Fc, low-pass = Re/(2pi*Le)

Beyond this frequency, the sub's output will roll-off at 6dB per octave ... at least, perhaps faster subject to other effects."

I was confused about the units of measurement, but based on this same equation being applied in other websites, i think Le is in henries and not millihenries (otherwise the formula doesnt make sense). So Le is actually 2.5*10^-3

With Re = approx 2.9 for both subs, and Le at approx 2.5mH, this should mean that the VC inductance kicks in at

f = 2.9/(2*3.14*(2.5*10^-3) = 184.71Hz, upon which we have a 6db/octave rolloff.

To use werewolf's golden rule, we need about an octave of headroom from this figure compared to our intended frequency range of use, which means this sub's Le should not be an issue as long as the crossover point is at 90Hz or less, which is more than reasonable i suppose.

Thats good i guess, although it is cutting it a little close :).
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
rimshot said:
I am worried, for the longest time Mike made them sound like W7 killers then when they come out he says they are meant primarily for the home? And there isnt much of a way around it but the parameters SUCK as does the price. Id feel much safer just getting a 12w7 for that price or a tad less (and im not a big jl fan) Im just having a hard time trying to figure out just which market Soundsplinter is going after. I am beginning to see why these were never released as the design has been around for quite some time :(
I hear ya man, honestly speaking some of the requirements for that sub are impossibly hard to live with. I mean, even at home, who can afford up to 9 cubic feet @ 16Hz for an enclosure? It seems that it took the idea of compromise in audio a little too far here LOL. I mean, i have little doubt that this could be the ultimate bestest low distortion high output subwoofer out there aside from the parthenon maybe (which is still just a motor, really), but at what cost to everything else like user friendliness and price? But other than those 2 issues (with Le being a non-issue now hopefully), the sub is no doubt a killer in terms of potential if those guys at soundsplinter got the sub right :) . We can't do anything about price, but enclosure requirements might be circumvented if this sub works IB. Without problems from inductance and box size, we may really have a winner here, even for car audio? :)
 

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I only wish they made something with more realistic #'s... i mean something with 14-20mm of x-max and 500w would be perfect for me, IB is fine...
Not that i would trade my M6mkII for it but it sure would be nice to have or at least hear one...

Leo
 

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Hey guys, don't let the specs spook you. They are a new technology which you can read about at http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4209&hl=
They don't conform well to the number crunchers, but don't shoot them down just yet. I know there is test circle going right now experimenting with car size boxes and alignments which can be followed on the same forum. I have seen video of these things and they look down right scary. They are well suited to HT as well, and 3.0 sealed will yield excellent results both in home and in car. Just tryin to say, don't knock'em till they prove knockable.
 

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finebar4 said:
Hey guys, don't let the specs spook you. They are a new technology which you can read about at http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4209&hl=
They don't conform well to the number crunchers, but don't shoot them down just yet. I know there is test circle going right now experimenting with car size boxes and alignments which can be followed on the same forum. I have seen video of these things and they look down right scary. They are well suited to HT as well, and 3.0 sealed will yield excellent results both in home and in car. Just tryin to say, don't knock'em till they prove knockable.

Sounds more like "fuzzy math" to me ;)


Dan Wiggins got into it with them about this awhile back and predicted exactly this. Very inefficient because you need so much copper in the gap. Gotta make up for it with a large enclosure or suffer low end. Its a nift idea thats been around for awhile it just has too many trade offs for most consumers.
 

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I love the basket design aesthetically, even though it's not as wide-open as a Peerless XLS basket. Still, going on spec - and I'm instantly very skeptical of anyone saying "this woofer doesn't perform to spec", unless it's a Tom Danley-caliber audio design genius making the claim and the woofer is not a traditional suspended cone connected to a voicecoil driven by a permanent magnet design; a high-Q system is going to sound like a high-Q system regardless of distortion - I think putting these woofers in a car, or for that matter in A BOX at all seems entirely besides the point. With all that stroke and high Qts, if independent testing bears out the marketing claims of lowered distortion, these woofers scream for is either a dipole or a cardoid/U-frame application. Especially the 15, with its 25Hz Fs. Alas, my current living room/HT design won't support subwoofers well out from the front wall....
 

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Chad Kuypers and myself talked about this also awhile back. The comment he made to me was "you'll never see anybody publish full specs for an LMT driver". He was wrong about that, but right about why you wouldn't do it. Low end on these subs should be insane, but the efficiency in areas where most music is played suffers. Which is another factor that makes this more of an HT subwoofer. In car environments we generally need our subs to be able to play as efficiently into the 80-120hz range.

There are some fanatics that think they'll be able to tell the difference in the amount of distortion between an XBL2 motor and an LMT motor, and they'll pay the ridiculous price. For now, I'll stick with XBL2 or the equivalent (RE's and Ascendant's soon to be newest offerings).
 

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newtitan said:
wow just saw the specs

for the life of me I cant understand the volume and sensitivity??

who in the heck wants 6 cu feet in there living room? and who has a 2000w sub amp??

WHOA
i'll have 14 cubes in my living room....doesn't really take up that much space....

6 cubes really ain't **** for a home sub :)
 

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newtitan said:
14 cubes man WOW, its more like you have a subwoofer to live in LOL, that must be insane

can I come over to watch Star Wars :)
the beginning of episode 2 is just plain nuts.

shook the thermostat off my wall. and was with just one SVS 12"....


soon.....i'll have 4 12's in there :)
 

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Looks like an excellent sub, knowing TC's reputation but geared toward a small niche of users.

Anyone drive a sedan, with a rear firing sub in the trunk? Try running it full range and listening... Imho it's difficult to tell a difference between that and lowpassing it ~80hz. Inductance in this case isn't really that big of a deal, since your car's back seat and the rear-firing position acts as a pretty stiff lowpass filter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
hey Dang what do you suppose are the odds of you being able to get in on that 'demo circle' that soundsplinter is having. You could measure the sub and see how it performs and put it in the database :) How awesome would that be

I tried modelling the sub in winisd and Box-Port Design but the thing came out all screwy, i dont think i have ever seen a sub model this way before LOL. Even winisd was going nuts recommending a 50 cuft ported enclosure tuned to 10Hz, and it was nowhere near a flat response LOL.

Soundsplinter has this marketed as a HT sub, i kinda agree with the guy who said Fs is too high (at least on the 12) for that purpose. It could do very well for car audio though, suspended on rear parcel shelf, with boot completely sealed from cabin, but boot allowed to vent a little to the outside? or dipole like ds-21 suggests.
 
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