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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This is an area where I struggle a bit understanding what I am seeing. I took a bunch of REW measurements, so lets look through them together.

I've been listening to some of my playlist songs and it can be a bit harsh at high volume. Vocals sound pretty good, but there is some harshness that I want to get rid of.

The goal for the tune is to learn and get it sound more pleasent than it currently is, I'm not expecting a dialed in tune as changes are still happening with the build. So, these questions were asked to be added here.

Have you confirmed that the OEM head unit's output does not clip at its 28/30 volume setting with both a 1kHz and 40kHz Sine Wave?

Answer: It's digital from NAVTV Zen to the Helix DSP Pro Mk3, there isn't any way to check for clipping. When gains were set, 40Hz and 1KHz -0db tones were used with volume maxed at 30 without clipping using DD-1. See post 34 here on my gain and amp structure.
Helix DSP Pro MK3 Gain Setup and other issues


Are you using some type of OEM interface...PAC AmpPro4, NAVTV ZEN, iDataLink Maestro, etc?...i.e. is that signal Flat and Full-Range?
Answer: NAVTV-Zen A2B. it should be flat, I have balance/face set to default center position and High/Mid/Low set to 0

And how are you getting signal from the head unit to your DSP?
Answer: SPDIF Optical from NavTV.

Please list your front stage and subwoofer drivers and their locations?
Answer: This is a touch subject, but tweets and mid-range are in custom pillars, mid-bass in the doors, single IDMax 12 in the rear.
Morel Piccolo Pillar
Morel Elate Carbon MM3 Pillar
Morel Elate Carbon MW9 lower door
Image Dynamics IDMax 12D4v4 currently, will be replace by 2 Raven 12XL
Mosconi Pro 4|10 for tweeters and Mid-Range
Mosconi Pro 4|10 for Mid-Bass and rear doors (There are currently no rear speakers)
Mosconi Pro 1|10 for Sub.

See post 140 for more detailed info on pillars. Helix DSP Pro MK3 Gain Setup and other issues

What are all of your crossovers set at initially?
Answer: Initial X-Overs are set at the recommended points based on Morels documentation.
Tweeter > HP 3300Hz -24db LW
Mid-Range > LowPass 3300Hz - HighPass 450Hz -24db LW
Mid-Bass > LowPass 450Hz - HighPass 60Hz -24db LW
Subwoofer > LowPass 60Hz -24db LW


Have you set at least rough time alignment?

Answer: Yes, current stage presents slightly below center of windshield.

What microphone and calibration file are you using?

Answer: MiniDSP UMIK-1 with calibration file provided with the mic.

This is my RTA settings. It's been a minute since I last used REW. All measurements were taken at 28/30 volume. Pink noise from my DD-1 CD was used via USB connected to factory head unit.

Font Material property Rectangle Screenshot Parallel


First up is all measurements except where noted were taken with the vehicle running. Second observation is, this system doesn't have nearly the output as my previous system. That's a topic for another discussion though. Anyway, here we go.

Vehicle baseline, no audio.
Light Rectangle Slope Font Line


Front Left Tweeter

Rectangle Slope Font Line Screenshot



Front Right Tweeter

Rectangle Slope Font Plot Line


Front Left Mid Range

Product Rectangle Slope Font Plot


Front Right Mid Range

Rectangle Product Azure Slope Font


Front Left Mid Bass

Rectangle Azure Slope Plot Font


Front Right Mid Bass

Rectangle Slope Purple Font Plot


Subwoofer

Rectangle Slope Font Plot Line
 

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2022 Ford Explorer ST
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Second set of measurements

Left/Right Tweeters

Rectangle Slope Font Plot Parallel


Left/Right Mid Range

Rectangle Product Slope Font Plot


Left/Right Mid Bass

Rectangle Slope Plot Font Line


Left Side

Rectangle Slope Font Plot Screenshot


Right Side

Rectangle Slope Font Plot Line


All

Rectangle Product Slope Font Screenshot


All Vehicle Off

Rectangle Product Slope Purple Font


Lacuna Coil - Sword of Anger during harshness

Rectangle Product Slope Font Plot
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I am going to look at these also and post what I think I see. If I am wrong, please do not hesitate to correct me and tell me I'm wrong.

First observation is the right mid-range and both mid-bass look like :poop:.
 

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Following this one…
Me as well.

Quick question though-why do you have an 80db peak just south of 40 hz in your tweeter response? Looks like ambient noise, but, that seems crazy high.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Me as well.

Quick question though-why do you have an 80db peak just south of 40 hz in your tweeter response? Looks like ambient noise, but, that seems crazy high.
Vehicle is running. That's why I added that as a baseline. I took all the measurements with the vehicle on since that is how all of my listening will be. I don't sit in my vehicle and just listen to music like some do. If I competed, I would tune with it off. That's also why I took measurements at such a high DB level. With the sub on, you can't hear the peak.
 

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Put at least 5dB incremented y axis and show sumation with left and right in same graph. This is unclear and what happens to be very loud but offending peaks are still visible. That baseline will mess your tuning...that 80dB peak at 40Hz added to 90dB subwoofer output gives sum of 90.4dB. In another words useless....
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Put at least 5dB incremented y axis and show sumation with left and right in same graph. This is unclear and what happens to be very loud but offending peaks are still visible. That baseline will mess your tuning...that 80dB peak at 40Hz added to 90dB subwoofer output gives sum of 90.4dB. In another words useless....
Where do I change the increments? I also add a sumation with the vehicle off. There is very little difference with the the vehicle on vs off. When you say useless, which measurements are useless, all of them or just the sub?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I have attached the REW file set for those who like to look at thing within REW. It's attached to the first post, just pull it down and remove the .txt extension from the file.
 

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Your baseline is useless and car no need to be runing as I said already 0.4dB is nothing(your worst case). In upper right corner there is icon which says limits. Click on it and put at least 50 dB difference in upper and lower limits.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
There is already a 100db difference. I zoomed in and was able to get better resolution.

Here is all channels summed with vehicle off.

Product Rectangle Slope Purple Font
 

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Clearly we can all see 50 dB scale and measurement you put as a .txt doesn't work. I see a lot of peaks that needs to be tackled. Most offensive would be that "M" above 2kHz. This is where 1/48 could be desirable for looking into peaks.
Your subwoofer slope towards midbass says that you don't have upfront sub; blend those better.

That should make system more pleasant.

There is plenty to do and yet to see. Potentialy your timing is way off or one side has big phase wrap around 450 which translates to 900 and 1800Hz. I don't have proper individual speaker graphs to help more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Clearly we can all see 50 dB scale and measurement you put as a .txt doesn't work. I see a lot of peaks that needs to be tackled. Most offensive would be that "M" above 2kHz. This is where 1/48 could be desirable for looking into peaks.
Your subwoofer slope towards midbass says that you don't have upfront sub; blend those better.

That should make system more pleasant.

There is plenty to do and yet to see. Potentialy your timing is way off or one side has big phase wrap around 450 which translates to 900 and 1800Hz. I don't have proper individual speaker graphs to help more.
Thank you. If I didn't pull correct individual speaker graph, what changes need to be made to make them useful? I'm learning here, so please be patient.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

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@BobTheBirdTurd

I'm assuming (and hope) that you're not taking your measurements and tuning while driving on the street or on the highway/freeway, correct? So, assuming that your "car running" measurement is while it is parked in a driveway or parking lot and the engine is at idle, how is that measurement relevant? Do you only plan to listen to your system while at a stoplight and when your engine is at idle?

See where I'm going with this? :p

For now at least, we want to see what the response is from the audio system itself. What the vehicle adds while you are driving will be hugely variable (dependent on engine RPM, the road surface & tire noise, MPH, wind, etc.), and mostly in the subwoofer's passband, so let's worry about that later with a subwoofer level/bass knob control. ;)

I didn't go back and dig through your build log, and on my display I just see the basics of your system. Make the changes to REW that @Speedhunter suggested, and EDIT your OP to add the following information...

Have you confirmed that the OEM head unit's output does not clip at its 28/30 volume setting with both a 1kHz and 40kHz Sine Wave? Are you using some type of OEM interface...PAC AmpPro4, NAVTV ZEN, iDataLink Maestro, etc?...i.e. is that signal Flat and Full-Range?

And how are you getting signal from the head unit to your DSP?

Please list your front stage and subwoofer drivers and their locations?

What are all of your crossovers set at initially?

Have you set at least rough time alignment?

What microphone and calibration file are you using?

Let's do spatial averages or Moving Mic Method for anything above ~200Hz.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
@BobTheBirdTurd

I'm assuming (and hope) that you're not taking your measurements and tuning while driving on the street or on the highway/freeway, correct? So, assuming that your "car running" measurement is while it is parked in a driveway or parking lot and the engine is at idle, how is that measurement relevant? Do you only plan to listen to your system while at a stoplight and when your engine is at idle?

See where I'm going with this? :p

For now at least, we want to see what the response is from the audio system itself. What the vehicle adds while you are driving will be hugely variable (dependent on engine RPM, the road surface & tire noise, MPH, wind, etc.), and mostly in the subwoofer's passband, so let's worry about that later with a subwoofer level/bass knob control. ;)

I didn't go back and dig through your build log, and on my display I just see the basics of your system. Make the changes to REW that @Speedhunter suggested, and EDIT your OP to add the following information...

Have you confirmed that the OEM head unit's output does not clip at its 28/30 volume setting with both a 1kHz and 40kHz Sine Wave? Are you using some type of OEM interface...PAC AmpPro4, NAVTV ZEN, iDataLink Maestro, etc?...i.e. is that signal Flat and Full-Range?

And how are you getting signal from the head unit to your DSP?

Please list your front stage and subwoofer drivers and their locations?

What are all of your crossovers set at initially?

Have you set at least rough time alignment?

What microphone and calibration file are you using?

Let's do spatial averages or Moving Mic Method for anything above ~200Hz.
Ok, for starters the reason I did the baseline with vehicle running was to simply identify any anomalies in the data . This is to answer the inevitable question of "Why is there a peak at 40Hz?" Another question that's raised, is why am I doing this with the vehicle running? Because if it's not, I have to keep getting in and out of the vehicle to push the button as it will keep turning itself off after a few minutes. If it's running, I can sit there as long as I like.

I will update the first post with more details and links to my other threads to answer some of these questions. I will also add my system details to the beginning of this one, so folks don't have to do research trying to help.

So to answer your first question. Yes, I'm taking measurements driving around my little city. :ROFLMAO: <--- joking! I'm not that dumb.
 

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Are you measuring using the "moving mic method"? If not, try doing that until the on screen measurements settle down or stop changing in a dramatic fashion. That method better simulates how we hear from the drivers seat. If you're not familiar with that process, search YouTube for Kyle Ragsdaled tuning videos... they show the technique better than I can explain.
 
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