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................ it is almost impossible to have a perfect sound in a car environment. Loud, yes, you can go loud as you can but cannot achieve the perfect sound.
If you don't have incredible sound in a car, most likely its a tuning issue (assuming basics are in place).
 

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If you don't have incredible sound in a car, most likely its a tuning issue (assuming basics are in place).
With millions of iterations, I've attained the best possible sound with an MS8. Sound is almost perfect but when I compare it with home audio, the road noise and everything above 80kph, you just don't hear the music, maybe 50% is the road noise. Turn it up, will kill your hearing in matter of minutes. So I'm of the opinion, you cannot achieve perfect sound in a car.
 

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Well if you were to move your refrigerator, microwave oven, food processor, dishwasher, and clothes dryer into your living room and turn them all on, the noise would make your home system sound pretty terrible too right?

Don't blame the car for being too loud when you're driving it. That's like saying it's impossible to play an epic game of Jenga on the deck of a small sailboat when you're sailing it. Neither situation is the ideal environment for the activity, so we shouldn't get mad when it doesn't work perfectly.
 

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Well if you were to move your refrigerator, microwave oven, food processor, dishwasher, and clothes dryer into your living room and turn them all on, the noise would make your home system sound pretty terrible too right?

Don't blame the car for being too loud when you're driving it. That's like saying it's impossible to play an epic game of Jenga on the deck of a small sailboat when you're sailing it. Neither situation is the ideal environment for the activity, so we shouldn't get mad when it doesn't work perfectly.
I did put a lot of sound proofing as well, STP. And then I tried to calculate the noise levels at these 30, 50, 70, 80 kph speeds using a Dayton imm-6 mic. At 80, which is the normal speed here, you hear a lot of noise as well.

These days, I have a headphone rig, sennheiser HD 600, tube amp, DAC and my PC. Your argument is invalid 😁 But yes, the sound from heavy outdoor units of ACs which surround you over here, is a killer. Thanks to the walls.
 

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i have a question here.

I read the earlier posts about how as long as you cross over your speaker before it starts to beam, then on/off axis is not very important. But we also know that we will almost certainly have to run a tweeter past it's beaming point, so therefore we are best off aiming tweeters on axis.

However, I saw a document from focal (I need to find it but can't seem to track it down) where they recommend that you aim their tweeters off axis, and aim them so that they fire directly at each other. The same way your mid woofers are when they are mounted in your door.

So what I did was use the pods that focal provides (they are meant for dash mounting, so they allow the tweeters to stand straight up when mounted on a dash), and I placed the tweeters above my factory speaker grill.

My factory speaker grill is very close to my windshield, but because I am aiming the tweeters to fire at each other, They are not aimed directly at the glass. See my picture.



I can swivel the tweeters, so I have tried both direct on axis angle, as well as the angle in the picture. The off axis sounds much better, both in sound stage, as well as sound quality.

This flies in the face of what was stated throughout this thread.

Can someone give me some insight? Also, would there be value in buying pods for my tweeters and mounting them in my a-pillar above my mids? As I said I think my system already sounds good now, but everything here says to get as far away from the windshield as possible and I am right up against it at the moment.

Thanks!
 

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i have a question here.

I read the earlier posts about how as long as you cross over your speaker before it starts to beam, then on/off axis is not very important. But we also know that we will almost certainly have to run a tweeter past it's beaming point, so therefore we are best off aiming tweeters on axis.

However, I saw a document from focal (I need to find it but can't seem to track it down) where they recommend that you aim their tweeters off axis, and aim them so that they fire directly at each other. The same way your mid woofers are when they are mounted in your door.

So what I did was use the pods that focal provides (they are meant for dash mounting, so they allow the tweeters to stand straight up when mounted on a dash), and I placed the tweeters above my factory speaker grill.

My factory speaker grill is very close to my windshield, but because I am aiming the tweeters to fire at each other, They are not aimed directly at the glass. See my picture.



I can swivel the tweeters, so I have tried both direct on axis angle, as well as the angle in the picture. The off axis sounds much better, both in sound stage, as well as sound quality.

This flies in the face of what was stated throughout this thread.

Can someone give me some insight? Also, would there be value in buying pods for my tweeters and mounting them in my a-pillar above my mids? As I said I think my system already sounds good now, but everything here says to get as far away from the windshield as possible and I am right up against it at the moment.

Thanks!
You have to keep in mind what off axis does to the response at beaming, it attenuates the signal outside of the beam. Some tweeters work well off axis, above beaming because they are "bright" and benefit from some attenuating. Focal in particular has a reputation for having tweeters that benefit from being off axis. With accurate frequency response measurements you can tell if a tweeter can could benefit from being off axis, the thing is, with some decent EQ you can keep them on axis and just lower the top end to keep them from being too "bright."
 

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You have to keep in mind what off axis does to the response at beaming, it attenuates the signal outside of the beam. Some tweeters work well off axis, above beaming because they are "bright" and benefit from some attenuating. Focal in particular has a reputation for having tweeters that benefit from being off axis. With accurate frequency response measurements you can tell if a tweeter can could benefit from being off axis, the thing is, with some decent EQ you can keep them on axis and just lower the top end to keep them from being too "bright."
Yeah I understand that focals are considered bright.

I haven't done any tuning yet, but there is clearly a big bump in the frequency response on-axis in the 13k or so range, according to this chart.



Off axis it is much more subdued. So I get that part. But what about off axis vs on axis for sound stage purposes? I found that on axis, the sound didn't "blend" as well (you can tell i'm a newb here right?). With the tweeters off axis, I can hear vocals centered right in the middle of my dash, and overall just a greater depth on the sound stage. it just sounds much better.

I don't think it was brought up in here what on axis vs off axis does to sound stage. You seem to have recommended that I try to EQ out the bumps so that I can aim the tweeters on axis, but is it really worth it to go on axis anyway? I have a C-DSP and I am running 3-way active, so while I haven't tuned my system yet, I could definitely tune the tweeters to sound better on axis. But I don't really see the point.
 

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It's really not going to make a difference if you leave them off axis, or put them on axis and EQ the top end down. With regard to staging, I suspect it was at least partially psychological. Had you tried on axis with 13khz and up attenuated, you would likely have gotten the same results as you have off axis.

And, that bump in the frequency response is right where the tweeter would beam. I suspect Focal did this on purpose to give the best FR to the majority of people purchasing the set. Keep in mind, we are the minority here, and the vast majority of people who buy car speakers just put them in factory locations, off axis. They were likely designed to accommodate those people, since they make up the majority of sales.
 

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This has been a pretty fascinating read. a) because i'm about to do my first pillars, with dyn mids and tweets, in a sprinter. b) i worked in many aspects of home audio over a 20 year period. Never would i say i'm an expert, but learning new tricks like room analysis / correction, so it's very pertinent!

This dash is huge. Upside - so are pillars, much placement room without any visual impediment. I run into plenty as it is...

If you have some thoughts on best starting point, my thread is HERE

Cheers,

Tom
 

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It's really not going to make a difference if you leave them off axis, or put them on axis and EQ the top end down. With regard to staging, I suspect it was at least partially psychological. Had you tried on axis with 13khz and up attenuated, you would likely have gotten the same results as you have off axis.

And, that bump in the frequency response is right where the tweeter would beam. I suspect Focal did this on purpose to give the best FR to the majority of people purchasing the set. Keep in mind, we are the minority here, and the vast majority of people who buy car speakers just put them in factory locations, off axis. They were likely designed to accommodate those people, since they make up the majority of sales.
I read some thread where the Focal Sales Manager (or something like that) recommend the Focal BE tweeter off axis because they were designed to be put in stock location,
but then again usually someone who is buying tweeter as expensive as Focal BE tweeter most likely do not put their tweeter in stock factory location... I think...
 

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I read some thread where the Focal Sales Manager (or something like that) recommend the Focal BE tweeter off axis because they were designed to be put in stock location,
but then again usually someone who is buying tweeter as expensive as Focal BE tweeter most likely do not put their tweeter in stock factory location... I think...


I have the Kit 7 and I think that tweeter is best suited more on-axis as apposed to off-axis

I would use a tweeter more off axis if it was an extremely bright tweeter to tame it a bit but the BE tweeter imho is ultra smooth so no need to have it off axis

If you set the Focal set up correctly it's one of the most natural sets you will hear you could sit and listen for hours on all types of music - set it up wrong and your going to be running out your car after 5mins


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There are several things that can help to create depth in the stage. First, it's important to separate the stage from the room ambience. The stage is where the musicians are and the room is where you are. Think of an auditorium--the stage dimensions are not the same as the room dimensions. In a bar, it's all one space. This may or may not exist in the recording. If it does, it may be real or fake--doesn't matter so long as it's there.

To leep it relatively simple, early reflections describe the area around the musicians and late reflections describe the listening space. For studio recordings, these reflections may or may not be added to the mix. IF they're added, then they're often the result of a room synthesis algorithm. many of these are very effective.

So...first, these reflections have to be included in the recording for you to reproduce them. If you have access to the EMMA disc and the IASCA disc, check out two tracks. Listen to the 7 drum beats track on the IASCA disc and then listen to the track on the EMMA disc where the guy speaks as he walks around the stage. These are good examples of tracks do and don't include these cues. No matter what you do (well, almost--but I'll get to that later), the 7 drum beats will NOT appear far outside the left and right speakers because the recording is simply panned from left to right using simple level controls in the recording.

The cues do exist in the track on the EMMA disc and they aren't synthesized. With this track it's possible to hear the room larger than the car.

Then, listen to a third track. Check out "I Will Rise Up" by Lyle Lovett. It's on "It's Not Big, It's Large". I'm not sure whether this is a studio track with room synthesis or recorded live, but it's a good example of a recording that includes a stage and a room. It seems close-miced so it will appeal to those of you who like live recordings and those who don't.

OK, now think about what you hear when you listen to a concert--choose an auditorium for this mental exercise. The musicians are on stage. You hear the sound directly from the musicians, the sound that's reproduced over the mains (the big speakers on the stage that point AT you) and the sound of those reflected from the side and back walls of the room. You also hear the sound of the musicians and the stage monitors reflected from the surfaces that make up the stage.

Think about what it would take to ACCURATELY reproduce that even using a recording and speakers placed on the stage if you were in sitting in the auditorium. If you had a speaker located at the position of each of the musicians and those were miced and piped into the house system, that might do it. If you placed two stereo speakers on the stage and piped the output of those through the house system, that would require those speakers to reproduce the space of the stage. Hmmm...

In both of these scenarios, you'd hear the room. The reflected sound would come from all around you, just as it did in the live recording. You'd probably hear a pretty good approximation of what you heard live.

Now, take those two speakers and place them in your live-in room. Hmmm...now the reflected sound you hear is defined by the boundaries of the room. Early reflections come from the space around the speakers and late reflections come from the back and side walls. All the sound from the speakers is reflected by those walls--the sound of the room isn't separated from the sound of the musicians. The early and late reflections are all included in the sound from the front speakers. You may sense from the recording that there was a room, but it won't be reproduced AS a room.

Now, what if we move to a car. The space is tiny. So tiny that there are no late reflections generated by the "room". We hear the car and the speakers as the same event. Acoustic crosstalk makes this worse.

OK, so what can we do? Eliminating reflections will get us back to the two stereo speakers in a dead room, but it isn't practical because we have to be able to see through the windshield and the windows. Kick panel mounting helps because the speakers are moved away from the glass. That helps, but low frequencies are still reflected--no matter the surface material--carpet doesn't eliminate low frequency or midrange reflections very well. Much of the ambient information is high frequency stuff, though. OK. So that's an improvement. Now we're closer to good 2-channel.

But what about the room? For recordings that don't include a room, we're now OK. Dry, studio recordings will sound dry. Images will be small and located between the speakers.90% of the cars I listen to and 99% of competition cars I listen to sound like this. When judges and competitors say, "The musicians aren't behind you when they play live", this is what they're after. When they turn their head to determine if something is coming from behind them so they can take points away, this is what they're after. I don't think those guys have ever been to a live show, and if they have, they weren't listening to the room.

If you want to win competitions, this is the way to do it. Figure out how to generate a bunch of early reflections in your car. Mount the speakers off axis in the kick panels and bounce shit around all over the place. Maybe you'll get lucky. You may have to remove the dash, cut a big hole in it so the sound of the speakers can bounce off the windshield with the longest path length you can pull off. this will increase the sense of "depth". This is a matter of trial and error and will seem like magic when you get to something you like.

If you use only front speakers and mount the speakers on your a-pillars and point them at the listeners, you'll NEVER get there. Someone will blast me and say that their car does it, but I'd postulate it's because they've never heard a room or never paid any attention to what live music sounds like.

So, what else can we do to approximate a room? Simple. Use an upmixer and rear speakers. Most of the upmixers (PL2, DTS Neo, Logic7) help this by attempting to remove the ambient sounds and steer those to the rear. You have to have rear speakers and they have to play loudly enough to be heard as real events. Fortunately, gain controls on the amp that drive the rear speakers make this simple. With this method, if the recording includes a room, it will be better approximated in your car. JBL's MS-8 does this. Other processors with PL2 also do this. It's very effective, but there are some artifacts. Get used to it.

The third way is to use a room synthesis algorithm that GENERATES a fake room. Early reflections can be added to the front speakers and late reflections can be added to the rear speakers. this can make the car sound larger than it is no matter the recording. This is what I used to use in my Volvo. It also works and I managed to win IASCA at SBN with it. Judges said, "I've never heard a car that REPRODUCED the ambience in the recording the way yours does." I didn't tell them that the ambience didn't EXIST in the recording until after I collected my trophy. There are no car audio processors that include this, yet. I did it with a PC and some custom software, courtesy of a Harman colleague.

So, after all this, my suggestion is--if you want depth, you have to have a system that can either reproduce it or create it. Two speakers on the a-pillars won't do it. You need rear speakers and you need the right information to be played by those rear speakers.


Thanks Andy

Your an absolute abyss of information (hope that came out right ..)

From summing up what you said earlier mids and tweeters are not a great idea on the A-Pillars - due to reflections, and you need to worry about where on the dash to install them...

The question I would like to know is this

Would I get a better sonic result if I placed a 3" mid say on the top 3rd of the door with the midbass below it in the traditional place and then install the tweeter on axis on the A-pillar?

Regarding the position of the tweeter... to avoid some reflections from the windscreen and side glass - I was thinking installing the tweeter between the sail position and the bottom corner of the actual A-Pillar nearest to the dash... see pic...

With regards to on-axis - if I went 100% on axis to each ear - the angle will be be different on both sides - is that a problem? Aesthetically people like Symmetry for there pods but if I were to have equal on axis positioning then it's all about the end result rather than aesthetics?

Also guys like to find a angle that can suite the passenger as well... in my case I would rather benefit entirely on my listening position rather than giving the passenger a better experience - besides I don't think they would suffer too much in any case....

Thanks for your help...

See pic...




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Put Andy's GB40's in the doors. Absolutely amazing transformation.

 

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Put Andy's GB40's in the doors. Absolutely amazing transformation.

Nice! I'm about to get started on my E91. Was curious if the GB40 would fit with the sweet Frog grille.

Oh, and Elektra. Here's the on/off axis response of the GB40 as measured by our very own ErinH. 0, 15, 30 and 60 degrees respectively.



Gives you a good idea of where you can low pass this driver and still have a relatively smooth frequency response.
 

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Nice! I'm about to get started on my E91. Was curious if the GB40 would fit with the sweet Frog grille.



Oh, and Elektra. Here's the on/off axis response of the GB40 as measured by our very own ErinH. 0, 15, 30 and 60 degrees respectively.







Gives you a good idea of where you can low pass this driver and still have a relatively smooth frequency response.


So between 2000hz and 3000hz? Where would you cross them at?


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Yep, somewhere in that range depending on slope.

Keep in mind your driver side mid will be significantly more off axis than your passenger side. Picking a speaker with smooth FR, both on and off axis, will make it easier to achieve a matched L/R frequency response in the car. So basically... use speakers in the proper pass band (before beaming) whenever possible.
 

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No enclosure, it's pretty dang tight back there.
 
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