[rton20s]

I'm trying to decide between a couple of options for a single 12" subwoofer in an enclosure behind the rear seat of my '04 Scion xB. The enclose will be flat and take the place of the spare tire, etc. with approximate maximum outside dimensions of 20" x 35" x 7"-8" (sealed or vented). Power will probably be two channels bridged to 4 ohm at 200-300 watts RMS.

My two front runners are currently the Peerless XXLS 12" (835017) and Image Dynamics IDQ 12 D2 V.3. This would be paired with a HAT Imagine I61-2 front stage.

Anyone have any thoughts? Anyone have ideal enclosure volume and port size for the Peerless? I've run some basic WinISD stuff, but I am far from a pro. Thoughts on round vs slot ports and how 90 degree turns affect the port(s)?

 

[tintbox]

Get a slim 12 for under each seat. That would be totally stealth. But if I remember correctly you have a quite a nice xB.

 

[t3sn4f2]

Dunno about the ID but the XXLS has the nice feature that the pole venting is done through the back of the dust cap. So there is not vent on the back plate and as a result no need leave space for it. Reducing effective mounting depth.

And if you cut the back out of the enclosure where the magnet perimeter wound land, you can gain even more space be removing the enclosure thickness from the depth needed. Just cut precise and seal it up with some high density foam or silicon.

 

[rton20s]

tintbox…

I think slim 12s would be quite a tight fit under the front seats. I know a 10 could fit, but the diameter of the 12s would make for quite a tight squeeze. The wife’s xB has a single eD 11Kv2 under the passenger seat and it works quite well as a supplement to the stock head unit and speakers. I would like to get a little bit more bottom end out of my setup without needing too much power. Stealth would also be nice, and I think the enclosure I am planning would fit that description pretty well.

The car is a mild custom. Formerly on air, but now dropped on coilovers over 18s. Not a whole lot of “dress up” otherwise. (Though I do have half a garage full of parts waiting to get installed.)

t3sn4f2…

If I am not mistaken, both the XXLS and the IDQ have no pole vent. Either way, I think they can both be accommodated by the enclosure space I have designated. I don’t think I’ll need to do any special cutting or notching at the back side of the subwoofer. I should also have plenty of volume based on manufacturer’s recommendations and some quick runs through WinISD. I’ve got just over 2 cubic feet as a base interior volume before driver displacement.

What I am really curious about is how people think these two driver stack up against each other. They appear to perform pretty closely when compared in WinISD. I’m also really curious (as mentioned previously) about port design. I know the port needs to be tuned for the specific driver, but I’m not sure what affects using dual smaller round ports or one large rectangular port would have vs the typical single round port? Or how much a 90 degree bend in any of those types of ports will affect the tuning? How will a flatter enclosure affect the sound when compared to a cube? Is there anyone here with a lot of experience with the XXLS and enclosure design for it specifically?

And lastly, I am curious to know if someone thinks there is another driver I should give a closer look? Give the parameters of my build and a budget of $250 for the sub, should I be looking elsewhere? My focus is sound quality, but I want to be able to reach deep when I really want to feel the bass.

 

[ZAKOH]

Have you considered holding out on sub purchase a little, and waiting until HAT's 10 Imagine subwoofer is available? Just a thought.. I assume it's going to have a nice blend with the Imagine front stage. It can work in 0.8-1.5cu ft sealed or ported box. See here.. Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - Ported vs sealed...?

I assume given your power output, it's best to have ported box if you go with 10 inch sub woofer.


Regarding Peerless XXLS vs IDQ, I have done some modeling before I decided to buy a different sub. 835017 requires a biggish sealed box, 1.8-2.0 cu ft for perfect qtc. I assume it should be fine to put it into a box as small as 1.3cu ft, after driver air displacement, and stuff it with polyfill. IDQ will feel at home in 1.2cu ft or smaller box without polyfill. Both have very high sensitivity and should produce fine lows with 200watt RMS, but Peerless is about 30% more efficient than IDQ. However, the Peerless does not have much power handling. 200-240 watts RMS is enough to make it reach its xmax at 20-30Hz frequencies. IDQ has more well behaved power handling, and will probably get louder than Peerless if you have 500-700watts RMS. My thoughts on these two.. given that you only have 200watt RMS amplifier, Peerless seems better, because of its high efficiency and low power handling is non-issue.

If I was using sealed box, I'd look into Peerless. If I was going ported, I'd wait until HAT Imagine is available and someone reviews it.

 

[rton20s]

I have taken a look at the I10SW, and love the idea of running all HAT speakers. I'm just not sure the I10SW will be able to reach as low as the XXLS or the IDQ. If there was an I12SW I would be all over it.

I've actually already used WinISD to compare the HAT sub (based on prelim T/S) to the other two subs. It looks like a killer efficient 10, it just loses out on the bottom end compared to the 12s. A pair ported might be possible, but then I could end up with issues getting the right amp for the job. (I'd like to use a single, powerful 4 channel amp.)

As mentioned, I am far from a pro. I was leaning a little more toward the Peerless than the ID because of efficiency. The only drawback is no local dealers and finding a competent shop to design and build a proper enclosure for me. Can you tell me how to know when I obtain "perfect QTC" for a ported enclose with the XXLS using WinISD?

I won't be buying right away, so I have time to wait for the I10SW. I'm also planning to run by the closest HAT dealer (45 min. away) to finally demo some of their products. I plan to talk to them about the sub stage while I am there. Hopefully they have some good insight as I know they were (may still be) an ID dealer.

 

[ZAKOH]

Interesting subwoofer, but I'd wait until subjective reviews arrive. I just found the T/S params for I10SW and loaded them in WinISD. I am pretty sure there are experts who can give a better box advise, but I think WinISD is useful to get a rough expectation of sensitivity, box size, etc. WinISD strongly recommends a vented box, but if you use a sealed box, WinISD recommends 0.5cu ft for perfect qtc. One thing that that catches my eye is that one way xmax is only 9mm. I assume this subwoofer has enough output potential for "SQ bass" type of music, which is most of what I need bass for (Focal CDs 1,4,6 would be representative for example of that music type). However, those who prefer to play their hip hop a little loud, might be disappointed with the output of a single sub in a sealed box.

For vented, WinISD recommends 0.810cu ft tuned to 30Hz, resulting in F3 of 45Hz, and sensitivity that's roughly 3dB higher than the above sealed box, and with power handling much improved. In this box, the I10SW has frequency response, power handling, and sensitivity that's approximately equal to Peerless XXLS12 in a 1.4cu ft sealed. It seems like compact ported box is the intended mode of operation for this sub.

12velectronics already posted its price, which is currently $239.99.The subwoofer market is relatively saturated with affordable and good sounding subs. It's gotta have some killer SQ features to justify that price IMO. But then again, Peerless XXLS12 at parts express is $250 (a little overpriced, given the price of Daytons IMHO).

 

[rton20s]

I guess if 12v is posting the T/S small numbers, then what I got as preliminary matches up with the final. What isn’t shown on the 12v site, and what hasn’t been finalized are the enclosure recommendations for the I10SW. According to the preliminary info that I have (along with the Arctic Yaris post on Buwalda Hybrids) the recommended enclosure is a 1.75 cf 4th order vented enclosure at 30 Hz with a 3”dia. x 9.6” port.

As posted above, I have been playing with this sub and several others in WinISD for about a week. And as stated above, I am a total novice with the software. However, in comparing the Peerless 12 in a sealed 1.75 – 2 cf enclosure to the Imagine 10 in an similarly sized vented enclosure @ 30 Hz and provided the same power they perform very similarly within their usable range. The IS10W though does get a stronger bottom end due to the port with a bit of a dip centered between 45 and 50 Hz depending on enclosure configuration. (Can this be overcome if the selected amp has an adjustable 0-15dB bass bust at 45 Hz?) I didn’t do a close comparison yet to see what a ported Peerless 12 would do, but I am sure it would out-perform the Imagine given a properly sized enclosure.

I must say, I am a little bit bummed on the pricing of the IS10W if it is correct. As you said, there are a lot of decent subs on the market at a reasonable price. I was hoping to see closer to $200. Who knows, maybe if Scott decides to go ahead with the buy one, get one half off deal he had mentioned, I can find a way to offset the cost. Either find another buyer to go in on the deal with me, or turn around and sell the second as BNIB. I may still evaluate some other options as well.