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Discussion Starter #1
Well, if you may remember, I had ran through some Dayton RS28A tweeters, but experienced a bad harshness in the midrange. After bumping the x-over from 1500 to 2100Hz, the harshness on percussion was softened, but stil present. Also, staging was poor at best.

Then, I tried some $26/pr HiVi TN28's. Theyre the funky little torpedo, back-chambered tweeters that zaphaudio rated "poor overall performer". After playing with these, they weren't nearly as crystal as the Daytons, but there was no in-your-ear brightness, and staging was finally respectable. I've been reasonably happy with them.

Now on to today, I came home from school to open my Seas 27TDFC's. Put these bad boys in, and played around with tuning for about 3 hours - trying EQing, gain playing, xover points, and placement. I almost wanted to cry. It was the Dayton experience all over again - only a little more dulled this time. Total upfront harshness, again, primarily on percussion.

What was really weird was that trying to EQ @various freqs really had no affect on the harshness. When I placed the tweets on the floor next to the Dayton RS225's in the doors, the harshness seemed to disappear, but then I was having path-length difference issues, and wasnt quite as satisfied with the soundstage.

So, what I took from this is that the 6th gen Accord just hates large, home tweeters. The only spot I had for the Daytons and Seas was near the sail panels, near the back edge of the dash (with the driver's side being just within arm-length). The HiVis I can wedge b/t the windshield and dash, right at the very front most part of the dash. This is obviously where I get the improved soundstage, but apparently this is the only way for tweeters to not be in your ear in my car.

After playing with all 3 though, if I could better position the other tweeters, I really liked the Daytons the best and now am a little sad I sold 'em to Finyevivlelele. They were heads and tails above the Seas IMO in terms of transparent, clear, detailed music reproduction. I don't know what zaphaudio is talking about, lol. I'm not too impressed with Seas, or madisonsound for that matter. The packaging was silly compared to PE, and they jacked the price of the same tweeters a week or two after I got mine.

Back in go the HiVis, unless I can figure out a smallish tweeter that can play down to 1800ish Hz. =/

Any other ideas, suggestions, WELCOME.

TIA

-aaron
 

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why not try these

werewolf said:
hey you gotta go to :

www.pacparts.com

select the consumer site, pick Alpine products by model number and pull up the parts list for Alpine SPXF17T. You'll see the tweeter listed by it's D2904 part number, plus a separate listing for the surface/angle mount hardware. Maybe some other stuff too ... but I'm too lazy right now ... lol

let us know how the search goes on pacparts

they are the scan speak d2904/6000 clone

they are selling 160 tweets for 60 bucks, and they are very small

and madisound has great service man, I think you just had a bad experience
everything Ive received from them has been shipped the same day, well packed

though partsexpress does pack better----but they charge a arm/leg for it though
npdang reviewed them here

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=536

sucks you sold the daytons, just got mine ad they are very well made IMO and sound good so far off home theater power

ive read that the new textiles you can get a bad pair--according to the guys over at diyaudio, and marks review

I bet you just have some reflection issues off the winsheild--but who knows
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hey thanks a lot for the response! I appreciate any help I can get.

Ya, looking back, the Dayton RS28As definately were awesome, I just had issues.

Overall Madisonsound is fine, it was just a little curious when I had two new tweeters packaged in two pieces of foam taped together, surrounding by newspaper, compared to PE's perfectly packed boxes. No biggie, as long as they work right ;)

Intersting about the Seas inconsistancy - zaph loved them, and I haven't experienced anything remarkable about them yet - at least in comparison to the Daytons.

How low can those alpine/scan-speaks play? When I clicked the spec-sheet on madisound it said not found :(

I just lost $40 on the daytons and if i sold the seas prol about that, Id have to sell my ARC or optidrive to afford $120 for tweeters =/ But they do look small enough for me to play around with sizing. Appreciate the help!!!

-aaron
 

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There's definitely something wrong, the seas nor the daytons should sound harsh. From my understanding of speaker designs, a lot of harshness could be due to the xover. It's not as simple as picking the right frequency to cross, but also the slope and attenuation. There's a lot of measuring, computer modeling and tweaking involved in speaker design. One example is the vifa d28, which a lot of people have complained about being harsh and edgy. After much discussion on one of the speaker building forums, they've pinpointed it to a bad xover design. I tried one of the implentations of the xover guru there and I heard no harshness at all. A lot of people there spend months designing an xover. What xover are you using? I know that for home audio, you would need at least the behringer to design a proper xover.
I think it is hard to pinpoint exactly what's wrong without measuring and or trained ears.
Also, harshness could be due to a bad recording.
Just my two cents.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I'm using an Audio Control 3XS, trying several xover modules ranging from 1500 to 2100, supposedly @24db 4th order LR slopes according to AC documentation. I was a little suspect myself of the crossover, only because when I bumped the module to 2100Hz for the Dayton it softened the harshness a lot, but it was stil noticeable. Yet, 300Z and others run Daytons @1500Hz with softer slopes. Racer Raul insisted it was a gain issue, but I adjust the gain barely high enough for the tweeters to be audible enough over the 8's - which is stil very minimal on both amp and xover. And again, I have NO problems what-so-ever with the HiVi TN28's on the dash - the Daytons and Seas are capable of playing just as low if not lower. Everything sounds great as far as blending in with the 8's, soundstage, levels, etc except for the fact theyre $13 tweeters and you can tell. Why should they sound SIGNIFICANTLY better with my setup then the Seas or the Daytons? The only major variable is tweeter positioning.

I dunno, what a let down =/ Maybe I need to try an inline notch filter or something, I'm not really sure what to do here.

-aaron
 

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Hey man, I had the same problems with my CDT Eurosport tweeters and now with my Hiquphons. Personally, I think it is not as much the tweeter but other things like type of music, car cabin effects, non-optimum tweeter placement, and improper levels.

I am by no means extremely well versed in audio know how or intelligence but I think you should experiment with the levels of your drivers. I am assuming you are running active so you can try what I did. I have the P9 which allowed me to listen to each individual driver at a time. I tried to match SPL levels (by ear) between the mid and tweeter. I actually had the tweeter louder than it should. Once I fixed that the problem got 90% better. Then when I listen to recordings that I feel have horrible dynamic range I drop 6.5 kHz and up down. Sometimes I drop it down 5 dB-7 dB depending on what song. Give that a shot and you might have some luck. My Hiquphons sound wonderful now!
 

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ArcL100 said:
I really liked the Daytons the best and now am a little sad I sold 'em to Finyevivlelele.
And I am very greatful that you did!
 

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Hey, I'm having the same problem in my Honda, but with the tweeters pointing straight at me from the dash. I guess you've tried a bunch of different locations. How did it affect the sound when you put them on the floor? Did you play around with aiming them down there?

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Ludemandan said:
Hey, I'm having the same problem in my Honda, but with the tweeters pointing straight at me from the dash. I guess you've tried a bunch of different locations. How did it affect the sound when you put them on the floor? Did you play around with aiming them down there?

Dan
I set them next to the mids in some plumbing ABS bends angled towards me on the floor. Localization, as far as blend of high low together vs seperated sound, was much improved. The harshness was also dulled nicely, however I was having delay issues - there was a lot of shimmer and echo on high-hats and such comming from the passenger side. It could possibly be resolved with phase playing and time correction and such, but I'd much prefer not to ruin music for anywhere other then driver's seat. HOWEVER, the soundstage was lowered more towards my wait/chest instead of my ears.

If you check out my RS225 install pics http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/seddymon/album?.dir=581c&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos you can understand that playing with them positioned near the floor isn't really a good permanent idea. My 8's already stick out like crazy lol. If I were you, and if I had the room, I'd try some metal strap using one of the woofer screw holes and bend them out above the mids like a lot of people do.

UPDATE on the harshness... I've found that playing with amps has a significant role - and I wasn't a believer in amp sonics. Is it possible I'm under-powering them? That'd explain why the HiVis sounded fine probably - they only have a 40W rating (FWIR) and were more efficient despite specs then the Seas or Daytons (Impedence related probably).

-aaron
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hmm, also, the windshield has a pretty steep rake, and the the dash is quite high in my Accord. I'm not sure how much of a factor that is either. Outside the car the tweeters sound much clearer then sitting in the cabin and getting a high-pitched headache lol. Probably need to EQ out the glass gain a bit.

I have my tweeters on the dash pointed somewhat at each other, like a typical setup. On-axis is pretty bright and way too driver's side biased.

npdang was right. I really, really wish I had a better EQ.

-aaron
 

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It's very hard to "underpower" a tweeter. Usually 10 watts is enough to cause permanent hearing damage, so having enough power on tap without driving your amp into serious distortion doesn't seem to be the problem. You also can't have path length differences with tweeters, at least with respect to phasing and imaging. Your real problem with kickpanel mounting is more likely the fact that the driver side tweeter is much louder than the passenger side due to it's proximity.

Onto the tweeters... I think most of your problems stem from the fact that you place these drivers in areas with high amplitude reflections, and serious diffraction that causes all kinds of peaks and dips in the frequency response.... and then you have no way of correcting for that.

Personally I don't like the 27tb whatever it's called :) It has a dull, shut in sound Imho from a lack of top end dispersion. The Daytons are better in that respect. I've heard both designs in a well integrated home setup and they are very unoffensive, smooth sounding drivers. Harshness and coloration from distortion, cone resonances, etc. are just not there Imo.

Btw have you tried just listening to the tweets themselves with the mids shut off? Is it still very harsh?
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
npdang said:
You also can't have path length differences with tweeters, at least with respect to phasing and imaging.
Ya, I didn't think that the inches wavelengths would do that either - but I just assumed that's what it was. It was probably because the passenger was on-axis and the driver's was more at my face not my left ear in retrospect.

Btw have you tried just listening to the tweets themselves with the mids shut off? Is it still very harsh?
I've listened to them one at a time, both at once, in my lap, in my hand out of the car, at different volumes, on different amps, different gains, different xover spots, etc.

Always sound harsh - other then when I'm at my trunk playing with gains. I don't get it.

Anyone else run an Audio Control unit out there? I can't think of anything else, and none of the amps Ive ran had crossovers high enough to bypass the 3XS. Although, my Dayton RS225's off it sound just dandy.

And I stil don't understand why the HiVis dont sound harsh and the other two do.

I hate this :mad:

To get very specific in case it helps, the harshness is almost always on percussion high-hats and cymbals. Synth sounds, high octave vocals, violins, etc, stuff like that sounds 100% fine. It is almost entirely precussion distortion. Songs without high-hats and cymbals and the like sound FINE.

I can EQ @a minimal spots on the alpine9831, but all it does is soften the harshness, but I can stil here it.

-aaron
 

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I had that same problem with my Alpine... not being able to cut enough on the headunit to remove all the door resonance.

With the tweeters you mention they're still harsh even at low volume? Have you ever owned a Focal tn-45?

Any possibility of measuring the in-car response? It might be pretty informative...
 

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Discussion Starter #18
It was all in the location and gain.

Keep in mind this was my first experience with anything audio when the thread originated, and I'm still awfully newb. As much as I refused to accept gain was a factor, it was. Because the RS225's don't exactly extend very high, I am thinking I was over compensating for the gross underlap with brightness.

It's funny what I wrote about the 27TDFC's then, and now. I ended up running the 27TDFC's for quite awhile until I ran the Neo3's. Running the 27's off-axis and with some tweaking helped tremendously. As I've said in other posts since, the 27TDFC's are EXTREMELY laid back - they will NOT fatigue. They were nice, but the Neo3's were definitely more my flavor.

Still not sure why I had such bad luck with the RS28A's. I bet with my 8053 I could get them dialed in these days. ~6kHz is a big culprit on dash/pillar tweets.

The Neo3's were nothing but awesome, and blended nicely with the RS225's - underlapped, of course. If anything though, vocals were a bit sterile because of the gap.

So in conclusion:
-Gain
-On-axis vs. Off
-EQ
-Dashmat
-Xover

If you dial all that crap in, you should probably be able to have good luck with most available tweets.

And oh ya... I absolutely refuse to ever put a tweeter in the kicks ;)

-aaron
 

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I found that having harsh issues can be helpped by placing headliner across the dash. A soft material to help reflections seems to help
 
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