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I just tried this and it worked great (much better separation in staging and very clean defined voice and instruments) but I had to change it because of my hu. I have a clarion dxz785, this hu sets t/a not in delay but in distance. So you have to start with the closer driver and move out, so if anybody has one you know how to set it and the 785 has .067 millisecond steps.

This should be a sticky, it is a million times better then setting t/a with distance and easier then tuning t/a slowly
 

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I just tried this and it worked great (much better separation in staging and very clean defined voice and instruments) but I had to change it because of my hu. I have a clarion dxz785, this hu sets t/a not in delay but in distance. So you have to start with the closer driver and move out, so if anybody has one you know how to set it and the 785 has .067 millisecond steps.
i was going to attempt this with my HU, different than yours but t/a is only available by distance. either in 2inch or 5cm increments so i'm going to do the math and convert the distance to ms, or find an app for my phone or create a program on my TI calculator.

i'm curious as to why you say start with the closer one though. care to explain why the original didn't work out so well?
 

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i was going to attempt this with my HU, different than yours but t/a is only available by distance. either in 2inch or 5cm increments so i'm going to do the math and convert the distance to ms, or find an app for my phone or create a program on my TI calculator.

i'm curious as to why you say start with the closer one though. care to explain why the original didn't work out so well?
The one you start with will remain zero. Since its in distance the furthest one will have the highest setting so if you start with the furthest one then you will have negative settings for the rest, which you cant do.
 

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Couldn'you just set the distance to the sub first and go from there?
I have a HU with distance too and I figured I'd start with setting real distance to sub an work my way back.
 

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Couldn'you just set the distance to the sub first and go from there?
I have a HU with distance too and I figured I'd start with setting real distance to sub an work my way back.
i was under the impression that doing things this way is the more conventional way of doing so and the way the author explains this method is in fact quite different.
i started off using actual distances as well and did adjust from there. by reading the instructions and all a few times i got the feeling that this way was supposed to be better than just using math with the distance and delay method since it's based off of how things actually sound to you, and not by what the data presents and in turn allows whatever t/a processing to take effect.
 

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i was under the impression that doing things this way is the more conventional way of doing so and the way the author explains this method is in fact quite different.
i started off using actual distances as well and did adjust from there. by reading the instructions and all a few times i got the feeling that this way was supposed to be better than just using math with the distance and delay method since it's based off of how things actually sound to you, and not by what the data presents and in turn allows whatever t/a processing to take effect.
Yes, sure I agree. But what I ment was setting the sub the actual distance from your seat position to start and then adjusting passenger mid to that sub position and move on from there using this method. You could also max out the sub distance and start from there. After you're done you could substract the shortest distance from the speaker closest to you from all drivers distances obtained with this method to set that one to zero.
Anyway, that's how I'll try to do it I think. No need to convert distance to miliseconds that way.
 

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Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
Guys,
It doesn't matter if your head unit adjusts by time or distance. The method involves simply clicking up and down and listening for sound changes. Don't even pay attention to the numerical values - in fact they will usually come out less than you expect. You don't need as much delay as you think. The figures in milliseconds were just for examples, for approximations and guidelines. I would actually remove those if I could still edit the original post. At no point are specific distances or times going to come into play.

PLEASE, don't ever measure distances and figure them into my method. Measuring distance is an absolutely worthless way of determining time alignment. Everything you need to know is in the write up, just follow it step by step and if you have questions or problems, post them here and I'll do my best to help.
 

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Well my results are not exactly what I expected.

My HU even though set to mono will only output sub signal on the Left Channel. So when you fade to the right, and isolate the sub & midbass you only get midbass. This totally screws my ability to configure those speakers for Step 1. So what I did was used music to TA the L/R midrange & tweet (they are tied together on the same passive crossover, and are installed next to each other on the same plane, also R midrange & tweet is furthest away from Driver). From there I faded to the Right and matched up the midbass w/(midrange & tweeter) using white noise. I did the same for the Left side. Then I switched to pink noise and brought the sub back into the mix and aligned it.

I have a pretty musical set of ears. I have very good relative pitch, and good awareness of tonality. I had a hard time differentiating the doppler effect. I can hear the kind of tapping sound and how it beats irregular, or steady. I can hear the harmonic overtones as I adjust TA.. but I just came to the conclusion that I should be adjusting it till the tone is most steady and uniform between the 2 speakers? Sort of a good blend w/out obvious cancellation issues.

As I adjusted the TA dial it seemed like the more delay that was added the lower (in pitch) the harmonic overtone would be. There was a couple points where you would notice some massive cancellation or what seemed to be a 'sweet spot'. This is where I left it.

Have to say after all is said and done.. for 40 min of just playing around I think it does sound better. There's defiantly a bit more bass/midbass.. and a bit crisper highs.

My Old settings was as follows:

LF (Mid/Tweet): 1.3ms
RF (Mid/Tweet): 0.0ms
LR (Midbass): 1.5ms
RR (Midbass): 0.0ms
SW (Dash Sub): 0.6ms


New Settings:
LF (Mid/Tweet): 1.5ms
RF (Mid/Tweet): 0.0ms
LR (Midbass): 1.7ms
RR (Midbass): 0.2ms
SW (Dash Sub): 0.4ms


I also followed up the TA tuning by bouncing around between 6db @ 125hz for a sub -> front stage crossover point, and 12db @ 100hz. Both have some +/-.

Neat tuning method though. Would of never thought of using pink/white noise.

I still have a shit ton of EQ tuning to go.. but this is a good start.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
^^^ BowDown, my compliments on your install, what a great read. I thank you for trying the procedure. The improvements you gained are just scratching the surface. Can you make the following changes to your method to extract the remaining potential?

- Don't use the fader to isolate channels. If your HU can't mute individual channels, can you disconnect RCAs? Complete isolation of 2 channels at a time is needed.
- Can you get the sub channel to play with both the L+R midbass channel? Can you switch RCAs or use a Y-connector on the back of the HU to do so?

With such a damn impressive system, it'd be a shame to get only a fraction of the benefit my procedure can provide.
 

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Well the fader and balance control on the hu does isolate the channel down to inaudible levels. It is a limitation of using an older hu. The only work around is to pull rca lines as you suggested. If I do this I can just leave all balance/fader controls alone and yank as needed.

Still doesn't quite explain the doplar effect. Am I on the right track? Would have to say the results have been pretty good thus far. I can give it another go but I'll have to remove the HU to gain access to the rca's.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Well the fader and balance control on the hu does isolate the channel down to inaudible levels. It is a limitation of using an older hu. The only work around is to pull rca lines as you suggested. If I do this I can just leave all balance/fader controls alone and yank as needed.

Still doesn't quite explain the doplar effect. Am I on the right track? Would have to say the results have been pretty good thus far. I can give it another go but I'll have to remove the HU to gain access to the rca's.
Whichever drivers you're aligning, the Doppler Effect will be centered in their crossover region. You are hearing the correct harmonics, the ones that change with every delay step, but I have never heard the tapping sound you described.

Imagine 2 jets approaching you from directly opposing directions, passing by each other right over your head, and continuing on their way. Think about what the Doppler Effect would sound like. Now imagine their engines emit only white noise (bandwidth limited to the drivers' crossover region). This is what the harmonic "overtones" will sound like when you are close. Listen for this pattern, find the center of the effect and you're golden.
 

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Guess it's going to take me several tries to see how this method can work. Attempt one was tonight and after a lot of time trying I ended up reverting to my old settings as they sounded better to me with music. With pink noise I think I picked up some harmonic changes between the mids and subs, but hardly what I would call pronounced.

I am somewhat of a tuning novice though so I will probably give it a try again in a few days.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Guess it's going to take me several tries to see how this method can work. Attempt one was tonight and after a lot of time trying I ended up reverting to my old settings as they sounded better to me with music. With pink noise I think I picked up some harmonic changes between the mids and subs, but hardly what I would call pronounced.

I am somewhat of a tuning novice though so I will probably give it a try again in a few days.
Thank you for giving it a try, it can take practice. That first pair is the most difficult. Experiment with your mid and tweeter first to hear the Doppler Effect, then go back and apply it to the sub/midbass. Use all of the tricks to bring out the low-frequency Doppler Effect - because as soon as you can hear it, you are guaranteed an improvement in TA.

- fully overlap the sub and midbass (sub 0-250+ Hz, mid 40-300+ Hz).
- turn it up loud; work in complete quiet, without any ambient low-frequency noise
- click up the time delay steps quickly to bring out the Doppler Effect in the harmonic changes. Think of this in terms of the stock market - ignore the random daily changes (one click) and pay attention to the long-term patterns (many clicks). The pattern will emerge.
- refer to my "jet" example in an above post. Listen for the effect in the bass and midbass region.

Whichever drivers you're aligning, the Doppler Effect will be centered in their crossover region... Imagine 2 jets approaching you from directly opposing directions, passing by each other right over your head, and continuing on their way. Think about what the Doppler Effect would sound like. Now imagine their engines emit only white noise (bandwidth limited to the drivers' crossover region). This is what the harmonic "overtones" will sound like when you are close. Listen for this pattern, find the center of the effect and you're golden.
 

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Would it be an Idea to get a video of this up on youtube or something? With comments and sound so we know what's right or wrong to hear. I don't think you could record the sub/woofer that well but it might work for the tweeter/woofer to demonstrate the doppler effect with a soundbite... just an idea ;)
 

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The method seems logical and may make sense, getting the drivers in phase with one another by using TA. My question is this: Before this method, get the speakers gain correct for a nice centered image and not worry about phase for the speakers? (i.e. leave all speakers + to + and - to - [amps to speakers])

This method will force the speakers to be in phase with TA. Your thoughts on this Greg200SE-R

Late!
 

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Discussion Starter #37
The method seems logical and may make sense, getting the drivers in phase with one another by using TA. My question is this: Before this method, get the speakers gain correct for a nice centered image and not worry about phase for the speakers? (i.e. leave all speakers + to + and - to - [amps to speakers])

This method will force the speakers to be in phase with TA. Your thoughts on this Greg200SE-R

Late!
It will be clearer and make sense when you hear everything the method describes. Practice with the mid/tweeter first to get a feel for it. As far as changing driver polarity, there's no need for this when you have time alignment. That's not to say it won't help, I just haven't tried it. Regarding L/R gain, it's a small factor in a centered image. Aligning the drivers to your ears greatly overrides the relative levels; with correct TA, you can have higher gain on the left and the center image will not be affected. Staging, however, would be.
 

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Is there any hope to adapt this method to achieve the best possible results with a passive 2-way front stage?
 
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