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Well, as much as I don't want to be that guy that asks the stupid questions.....hopefully you all feel that the only stupid question is the one not asked.....:worried:

1) If the system has already been rendered 'linear' using an RTA (basic eq +/- at certain freqs to match up the left and right), and 'Levels' within the head unit (L - 1 or -2, R 0) that helped center things in the sound stage, and then a little TA was applied (mostly to the right mid range - everything else was kept at 0)........would you put the levels back to 0 for all drivers before implementing your method? I'm not sure where level matching (really between left and right - not between sets of drivers) come into play with your method of TA.

2) No one has asked yet, so here it goes - restating the obvious.....if one happens to have a 3 way front stage, then it would be the same - just add the step with the mid range / wide bander = sub + mid bass / mid bass + mid range / mid range + tweeter - is that what the method would look like?

I am certainly going to try this next weekend (trip this week) - I just got my power supply, so I can sit out there for hours burning my ears with pink noise. I am very intrigued with what your method.
 

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Hmmmm very very interesting. This sound like the process of aligning like side drivers I've used for some time and honestly I don't remember who i learn it from. But your write is bit more detailed, with listening for Doppler Effect.

Great Write up!

Now Please correct me if i'm wrong here. But this process of T/A seem to be put same side drivers in alignment (as I state above) with the Sub-woofer as the point of reference for both sides. As you never align opposite side drivers. You only verify the center image with both sides playing and if it is not correctly centered start the process over once more.

Meaning,

First your align both mid-bass to the sub/s. First passenger side then Drivers side.

Next. Your aligning the tweeter or midrange to the mid/bass as the mid/bass drivers have already been aligned to the point of Reference which is the sub. So T/Aing (putting to correct phase) the tweeter or midrange to the mid-bass is also Aligning the the next set of drivers with the sub/s and so on and so forth.

So at the end of the process the entire system should be in phase/Alignment, therefor the speakers/placements should seem to disappear from the listening experience and just the music should remain. Which is the goal of any well design system.
 

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Messed around with this last night.. got some unusual settings compared to my normal setup.
Old: (far side gained down.. pass side is always loud in this car)
HL (high left) 0db, 1.2ms -- HR -6db, 0.0
ML -3db, 1.1ms -- MR -7db, 0.0
Subs 0.0ms

New: gain settings about same, only time listed
HL 2.5s -- HR 1.3
ML -2.4s -- MR 1.3
SUBS - 0.

Interestingly, the delay between L/R is about the same as my old setup, only with delay added to the right side.. This definitely blends with the subs a lot better, and oddly, the overall tonality is better.

I had a lot of trouble hearing the doppler effect, especially on the mids..
When i initially set up using just the pink noise.. I had to make some adjustments when I listened to music.
On the tweeters, changes of 0.1ms sometimes made a BIG difference in sound:
HL- at 2.3ms there was a noticable reflection off the drivers side glass., 2.4ms there was another reflection in a different space, even worse.. 2.5ms, WOW, cohesive sound and the phantom sounds are gone..tweeter disappears.

Overall, a good technique.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Is there any hope to adapt this method to achieve the best possible results with a passive 2-way front stage?
Assuming you can time delay your front stage channels, you'll see a lot of benefit. You'll still be able to precisely align your sub, left midbass, and right midbass. Which means correct sub integration, bass impact and likely improved synergy between L/R sides. What you'd be missing is the tweeter/mid integration. Follow steps 1 - 3 in the writeup.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
1) If the system has already been rendered 'linear' using an RTA (basic eq +/- at certain freqs to match up the left and right), and 'Levels' within the head unit (L - 1 or -2, R 0) that helped center things in the sound stage, and then a little TA was applied (mostly to the right mid range - everything else was kept at 0)........would you put the levels back to 0 for all drivers before implementing your method? I'm not sure where level matching (really between left and right - not between sets of drivers) come into play with your method of TA.
You'll find that time alignment overrides any level and frequency response adjustments as far as centering the image. I recommend to zero out your levels just for the sake of consistency and simplicity. After locking in your TA, you'll be working with an entirely different sound coming from your system - you'll find that you'll require considerably less EQ and level correction. Of course, you can fine tune as desired with levels and L/R EQ but this is more for stage width/balance. The center will not budge because arrival times will be set to your ears during the process.

2) No one has asked yet, so here it goes - restating the obvious.....if one happens to have a 3 way front stage, then it would be the same - just add the step with the mid range / wide bander = sub + mid bass / mid bass + mid range / mid range + tweeter - is that what the method would look like?
Yup, you got it. Good questions. BTW, you've got a great install thread! I drive a 3series as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Hmmmm very very interesting. This sound like the process of aligning like side drivers I've used for some time and honestly I don't remember who i learn it from. But your write is bit more detailed, with listening for Doppler Effect.

Great Write up!

Now Please correct me if i'm wrong here. But this process of T/A seem to be put same side drivers in alignment (as I state above) with the Sub-woofer as the point of reference for both sides. As you never align opposite side drivers. You only verify the center image with both sides playing and if it is not correctly centered start the process over once more.

Meaning,

First your align both mid-bass to the sub/s. First passenger side then Drivers side.

Next. Your aligning the tweeter or midrange to the mid/bass as the mid/bass drivers have already been aligned to the point of Reference which is the sub. So T/Aing (putting to correct phase) the tweeter or midrange to the mid-bass is also Aligning the the next set of drivers with the sub/s and so on and so forth.

So at the end of the process the entire system should be in phase/Alignment, therefor the speakers/placements should seem to disappear from the listening experience and just the music should remain. Which is the goal of any well design system.
Thanks for all your contributions to this forum and the industry as a whole, I'm very intrigued by your wideband drivers.

You're correct regarding the method; my thought process was to choose one reference point and sync every driver off of it (and, by default, each other). Since the sub is the reference, alignment progresses from low frequency drivers to high.
 

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GREAT thread.

I attempted to do this today. I could absolutely not tell any change at all when trying to align the sub and my L8's, even with the crossovers set to 300hz. I THINK I hear a difference when messing with the L1 and the L3 just to see if I could hear something.

The L1 and L3 difference was VERY slight. It sounded like part of the static "disappeared" so to say. It went from full static, then to getting quieter on the next 5ms increment, to going away on the next 5ms, to coming back on the next 5ms. Does that make sense? Do I want to set it to when the extra static sound is gone?

Thanks for the help in this!
 

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Thank you for the great write-up. I have a seemingly obvious question, hopefully not dumb:

Would this method also work if I play a sine wave at the xover frequency between sub/mid and at the xover frequency between mid/hi? I figure it may be easier to hear cancellation and maximum amplitude by just focusing on the frequency in question instead of using a whole spectrum of noise. Thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter #50
GREAT thread.

I attempted to do this today. I could absolutely not tell any change at all when trying to align the sub and my L8's, even with the crossovers set to 300hz. I THINK I hear a difference when messing with the L1 and the L3 just to see if I could hear something.

The L1 and L3 difference was VERY slight. It sounded like part of the static "disappeared" so to say. It went from full static, then to getting quieter on the next 5ms increment, to going away on the next 5ms, to coming back on the next 5ms. Does that make sense? Do I want to set it to when the extra static sound is gone?

Thanks for the help in this!
The sub/passenger midbass alignment is the hardest one. It has immense benefits so keep trying - you're on the right track since you already hear the harmonics (static) and have an idea of what to listen for. The static you hear will sound the same - just at different frequencies. You heard it in the midrange around the mid/tweet. The bass drivers will cause a low frequency "static." The easiest way to start hearing it is to hold down your time alignment button and scan quickly up and down - the quickly changing sound can bring it out.

And yes, the static disappearing is exactly what you're looking for, keep at it.
 

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All I want to say is thanks. I tried it twice and the first time I just sat there not knowing what to listen for. Tried it again a few weeks later and "got it". I did the tweeters to woofers first to get the hang of it. After that experience I knew what to listen for aligning sub and woofer. It made everything fall into place more than I was able to reach before.

This really should be a sticky!
 

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I give this method of TA a tried and spend about 2 hours on it. It was difficult at first, almost give up. But I keep on at it over and over again and finally nailed it. The result is quite spectacular!
Before I had my Pioneer P99RS does the auto TA (using the custom method) and fine tune it afterward. It sound pretty good with my system. But compare to this method of TA, Greg200SE-R method is even better...much better :) Now my system sound more deeper(especially the midbass), voice is more focus and center and overall dynamics has improved. I would say my SQ improve at least 50% with this method.
Thank you Greg200SE-R for sharing this method with us. If you ever come over to southern CA, I'll buy you lunch :)
 

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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
Thank you for the great write-up. I have a seemingly obvious question, hopefully not dumb:

Would this method also work if I play a sine wave at the xover frequency between sub/mid and at the xover frequency between mid/hi? I figure it may be easier to hear cancellation and maximum amplitude by just focusing on the frequency in question instead of using a whole spectrum of noise. Thoughts?
GREAT question. Using sine waves at specific freqs is something I tried early on while experimenting. I tried sine, square, sawtooth as well as multiple waves. The results were always the same: adjusting delays doesn't change the sound of the waves in any meaningful way. No repeatable patterns emerged, and no indications given when the drivers were aligned. I'm conviced they're too focused in bandwidth.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
...I tried it twice and the first time I just sat there not knowing what to listen for. Tried it again a few weeks later and "got it". I did the tweeters to woofers first to get the hang of it. After that experience I knew what to listen for aligning sub and woofer. It made everything fall into place more than I was able to reach before...
This sums up perfectly what to expect, and how to practice listening for the Doppler effect. If I could still edit my original write up, I'd incorporate steps to practice with the mid/tweeter alignment before doing the whole system. Thanks for that summary.

I give this method of TA a tried and spend about 2 hours on it. It was difficult at first, almost give up. But I keep on at it over and over again and finally nailed it... ...If you ever come over to southern CA, I'll buy you lunch :)
Thanks for your time and patience. If anyone gave this a try and gave up, try aligning your mid/tweeter to get the hang of it. Once the "aha" moment comes, you're 90% of the way there.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Can I take advantage of this method on a very simple system (front coaxes, rear coaxes, and sub)?
Yup, as far as bass alignment between sub and front coaxials, you'll get all of the benefits. You can't adjust TA between your front mids/tweets, but they are somewhat inherently time aligned by merit of being coax speakers. If you have TA already, there's never any reason not to take advantage of it.

About your rear coaxes though, my writ up never involves rear speakers. You can align them to the fronts, but I can't say how it will sound. In general, it would be considered bad for sound quality, but good for giving your rear passengers sound. good luck
 

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Using this guide, how would you time align components?

In my specific setup, I have my components by the doors and both tweeter and mids are next to each other.

Now, do I align sub with mid/tweeter as a whole, or should I do Sub and Mid first, then Mid with tweeter and adjust phase on tweeter to match my mid?
 
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