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Discussion Starter #1
m putting together my own compnent set, Im just curious what are good traits to look for in a crossover? What specific features should I look for? And what are some good brands that are good but reasonably cheap? Im looking for a 3 way, to run misbass to the rear, mids and highs to the front, and lows to my sub. Now for the fronts I will be running component sets on their own, would it be better if I got premade component sets with passive crossovers for those? Or would it be also be better to run it with the crossover sending mids to all 4 door speakers, highs to tweets, and lows to subs. Im a relative newbie to this DIY approach, I understand the basics of crossovers and frequency tuning but Ive never done it like this, so please bear with me here. One more quck question, I understand that when not using a kick panel and putting the the main speakers in the doors down low with the tweets say in the door sail, that they can get out of phase. Do the electronic crossovers provide adjustments for this? The install clinic at ECA says that some people reverse the polarity of the tweet to delay it by 3ms or so but is that safe to do?
 

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Re: Putting together component set, help with crossover info

m putting together my own compnent set, Im just curious what are good traits to look for in a crossover? What specific features should I look for? And what are some good brands that are good but reasonably cheap?
Personally, I will always prefer to run an active setup. You will love the ability to adjust and fine tune your system.

Im looking for a 3 way, to run misbass to the rear, mids and highs to the front, and lows to my sub.
Midbass is in the range of frequency where you can definately locate direction. I would strongly advise NOT to put the midbass in the rears as it will pull your sound stage back. I also think it would sound very weird. If you don't have room for a midbass in the front, A good idea would to use a 2 way setup with a sub in the back. A well designed 2 way system will sound tons better than a 3 way system that's not installed correctly (ie midbass in the rear deck is just about the worse thing you can do).

Now for the fronts I will be running component sets on their own, would it be better if I got premade component sets with passive crossovers for those? Or would it be also be better to run it with the crossover sending mids to all 4 door speakers, highs to tweets, and lows to subs.
It is better to build your own set of components. For the following reasons. A $200 components set (2-way) will sound as good as components sets found in the range of $800 (such as focals utopia) :) Second, if you are a true DIY person, you will eventually decide to use active setup, which means you are going to throw away the passive xovers that come with the premade component set.

Im a relative newbie to this DIY approach, I understand the basics of crossovers and frequency tuning but Ive never done it like this, so please bear with me here.
I would recommend you spend several days and read all the DIY Articles, General Audio, and Reviews on this forums. You will learn more than you want. While reading, keep in mind the costs you will spend and what products you will be buying for your system. For example, read about tweeters and ribbons, and decide if you want to go the ribbons route and if so, which ribbons. Read about door dampening, and expect to spend at least $100 on damping materials to make the best of your installation. Also spend some time reading drivers reviews even on drivers you are not interested in, it will give you background on the language and depth of discussion spoken here.

One more quck question, I understand that when not using a kick panel and putting the the main speakers in the doors down low with the tweets say in the door sail, that they can get out of phase. Do the electronic crossovers provide adjustments for this? The install clinic at ECA says that some people reverse the polarity of the tweet to delay it by 3ms or so but is that safe to do?
If your tweeters get out of phase, it is perfectly safe to reverse the polarity. However, I do not know if it will delay it by 3ms. You do not need a special crossover to provide this adjustment, you can simple reverse the + and - on the tweeter. But if you have a high quality processor such as the DCX2496 (read about it on this forums), you can adjust the phase by single degree increments!

Good luck with your choices of drivers. Also know that if you decide to purchase any drivers. I recommend you privatemessage npdang and get a price quote from him. He usually has most of the top end drivers in stock and can get them to you at great prices!

David



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I think the first thing to do is to "forget" alot of the technical explanations that you've heard on other boards. Alot of the advice is sound, and can yield improvements in your system but the reasoning behind them is often just wrong.

Reversing polarity does not induce a 3ms time delay. It just flips the polarity of the driver 180 degrees. If you search a little more on elitecaraudio you will see where I posted the impulse response of a driver wired both ways, and there is just no delay in the signal's arrival time.

xDeliriousx did a good job answering your questions :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Wow thank you for the quick response!!!
I do have room for the midbass in the front, maybe Im just a little confused. I was thinking midrange speakers in the front with frequency response of about 150Hz-6Khz, with "midbass" speakers in the back playing around 20hz - 1KHz supplementing the subs which are playing 10-150 Hz. With the tweets doing everything 2,500Hz+. Im just trying to get an overlapping effect. Is this the wrong way to go about this?

Do you consider midrage and midbass one and the same? I have seen many drivers that claim to be midrange while others claim to be midbass. The "midrange" drivers generally appear to range between 50Hz and 6000Hz(ish). While the drivers labeled "midbass" appear to range between 10Hz and 150Hz(ish).
 

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Discussion Starter #5
npdang said:
Reversing polarity does not induce a 3ms time delay. It just flips the polarity of the driver 180 degrees. If you search a little more on elitecaraudio you will see where I posted the impulse response of a driver wired both ways, and there is just no delay in the signal's arrival time.
Right, yea I understand polarity. I was just basing that off of what I read from their install clinic page :) If thats not true, certainly feel free to correct me, as its not a conclusion that I came to on my own. In any case, based of what xDeLiRiOuSx said; its the job of the signal processor to adjust phase. The DCX2496 seems a bit much for car audio usage. Is there something a little cheaper that would provide this adjustment? Do you think it will even be noticable enough to worry about?
 

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Halonix said:
Wow thank you for the quick response!!!
I do have room for the midbass in the front, maybe Im just a little confused. I was thinking midrange speakers in the front with frequency response of about 150Hz-6Khz, with "midbass" speakers in the back playing around 20hz - 1KHz supplementing the subs which are playing 10-150 Hz. With the tweets doing everything 2,500Hz+. Im just trying to get an overlapping effect. Is this the wrong way to go about this?

Do you consider midrage and midbass one and the same? I have seen many drivers that claim to be midrange while others claim to be midbass. The "midrange" drivers generally appear to range between 50Hz and 6000Hz(ish). While the drivers labeled "midbass" appear to range between 10Hz and 150Hz(ish).
No problem Halonix, I always like to make new members feel welcome so they come back and help build up our community. Midrange and midbass are two different things when you are looking at a 3-way system: tweeters, midrange, midbass, sub. On a 2-way system they are considered the same, in a two way system you get tweeters, midrange+midbass in one, and a sub. Basically a decent "mid" is capable of handling around 63hz up to 2khz (specs vary depending on drivers). The reason people want a 3-way setup is so that they can release some of the responsibility of the "mids." A 3-way setup allows the midrange to take care of the upper part (say around 200hz up to 2khz), and the midbass to take care of the lower part (say 200hz down to 80hz). This way the midrange can do a better job of handling ONLY the midrange while the midbass can focus on sending out clean midbass signals ONLY.

Personally I have a 2-way setup and after hours of detailed EQ'ing I was able to get excellent midbass and very adaqute midrange. It's up to you if you want to spend the extra money and time to install a separate midbass. It would definately sound better, but requires a lot of work and a bit more money.

Right, yea I understand polarity. I was just basing that off of what I read from their install clinic page If thats not true, certainly feel free to correct me, as its not a conclusion that I came to on my own. In any case, based of what xDeLiRiOuSx said; its the job of the signal processor to adjust phase. The DCX2496 seems a bit much for car audio usage. Is there something a little cheaper that would provide this adjustment? Do you think it will even be noticable enough to worry about?
The DCX2496 is perfect for setting up a great car system. The features may be overwelming right now, but trust me, once you start EQ'ing your system you'll thank heaven that you've picked up the DCX2496. It does so many wonderful things!

Try your setup without doing any phase adjustment on the tweeters. See how you like it. If you want to make changes, I recommend you to just get the DCX2496, it's money well spent.

npdang said:
xDeliriousx did a good job answering your questions
Thanks, you did a good job with your FAQ's and reviews, that's where I pick up all this stuff, heh.

David
 

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Discussion Starter #7
xDeLiRiOuSx said:
Halonix said:
Wow thank you for the quick response!!!
I do have room for the midbass in the front, maybe Im just a little confused. I was thinking midrange speakers in the front with frequency response of about 150Hz-6Khz, with "midbass" speakers in the back playing around 20hz - 1KHz supplementing the subs which are playing 10-150 Hz. With the tweets doing everything 2,500Hz+. Im just trying to get an overlapping effect. Is this the wrong way to go about this?

Do you consider midrage and midbass one and the same? I have seen many drivers that claim to be midrange while others claim to be midbass. The "midrange" drivers generally appear to range between 50Hz and 6000Hz(ish). While the drivers labeled "midbass" appear to range between 10Hz and 150Hz(ish).
No problem Halonix, I always like to make new members feel welcome so they come back and help build up our community. Midrange and midbass are two different things when you are looking at a 3-way system: tweeters, midrange, midbass, sub. On a 2-way system they are considered the same, in a two way system you get tweeters, midrange+midbass in one, and a sub. Basically a decent "mid" is capable of handling around 63hz up to 2khz (specs vary depending on drivers). The reason people want a 3-way setup is so that they can release some of the responsibility of the "mids." A 3-way setup allows the midrange to take care of the upper part (say around 200hz up to 2khz), and the midbass to take care of the lower part (say 200hz down to 80hz). This way the midrange can do a better job of handling ONLY the midrange while the midbass can focus on sending out clean midbass signals ONLY.

Personally I have a 2-way setup and after hours of detailed EQ'ing I was able to get excellent midbass and very adaqute midrange. It's up to you if you want to spend the extra money and time to install a separate midbass. It would definately sound better, but requires a lot of work and a bit more money.

Right, yea I understand polarity. I was just basing that off of what I read from their install clinic page If thats not true, certainly feel free to correct me, as its not a conclusion that I came to on my own. In any case, based of what xDeLiRiOuSx said; its the job of the signal processor to adjust phase. The DCX2496 seems a bit much for car audio usage. Is there something a little cheaper that would provide this adjustment? Do you think it will even be noticable enough to worry about?
The DCX2496 is perfect for setting up a great car system. The features may be overwelming right now, but trust me, once you start EQ'ing your system you'll thank heaven that you've picked up the DCX2496. It does so many wonderful things!

Try your setup without doing any phase adjustment on the tweeters. See how you like it. If you want to make changes, I recommend you to just get the DCX2496, it's money well spent.

npdang said:
xDeliriousx did a good job answering your questions
Thanks, you did a good job with your FAQ's and reviews, that's where I pick up all this stuff, heh.

David
It looks to me like the DCX2496 is the crossover, so I wouldnt have to buy that in addition to all the crossovers, right? It does look like it has a 120V plug. Is there a car version? Or do I have to buy a power inverter as well?

So what do you think about what Im wanting to do with the midbass in the rear with the subs and the midrange and tweeters in the front?

I know it may seem like Im getting in over my head... but Im a quick learner and more than willing to take the time to do this correctly.
 

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Yes the DCX2496 is the crossover. If you are running a 2 way setup with a sub than the DCX2496 can handle everything. If you are running a 3 way front setup with a sub you could use your headunit's sub preout to handle the sub frequency. Or you can get a second DCX2496. Another popular route is using the Alpine PXA-H700 proccesor.

You will need a power source.
Read these threads, should have all the info you need.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=248
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=203

Also I know of someone who is coming up with a PS for the DCX2496. Also hear that npdang might be coming out with a ps, not sure when either/any of these will be available, but I know of at least one in development.
 

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Halonix said:
So what do you think about what Im wanting to do with the midbass in the rear with the subs and the midrange and tweeters in the front?
I mentioned earlier that you would NOT want to put the midbass in the rear. This is because midbass drivers are directional. It will distort your soundstange. You don't need rear speakers :)

David
 

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Discussion Starter #10
xDeLiRiOuSx said:
Halonix said:
So what do you think about what Im wanting to do with the midbass in the rear with the subs and the midrange and tweeters in the front?
I mentioned earlier that you would NOT want to put the midbass in the rear. This is because midbass drivers are directional. It will distort your soundstange. You don't need rear speakers :)

David
Yea I read that... but I thought you were talking specifically about having the "midrange" speakers in the front. How is a midbass any different than a regular sub? Other than that it just plays a slightly higher frequency. What about it makes it any more directional than a regular woofer? I realize higher frequencies make a speaker more directional but what is the frequency at which a speaker would become directional to the point that it would start to distort your sound stage? The middbass drivers Im looking at only go up to 1000Hz. I am heeding what your saying Im just curious as to why?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Halonix said:
xDeLiRiOuSx said:
Halonix said:
So what do you think about what Im wanting to do with the midbass in the rear with the subs and the midrange and tweeters in the front?
I mentioned earlier that you would NOT want to put the midbass in the rear. This is because midbass drivers are directional. It will distort your soundstange. You don't need rear speakers :)

David
Yea I read that... but I thought you were talking specifically about having the "midrange" speakers in the front. How is a midbass any different than a regular sub? Other than that it just plays a slightly higher frequency. What about it makes it any more directional than a regular woofer? I realize higher frequencies make a speaker more directional but what is the frequency at which a speaker would become directional to the point that it would start to distort your sound stage? The middbass drivers Im looking at only go up to 1000Hz. I am heeding what your saying Im just curious as to why?
Anybody want to answer that?
 

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Halonix said:
Halonix said:
xDeLiRiOuSx said:
Halonix said:
So what do you think about what Im wanting to do with the midbass in the rear with the subs and the midrange and tweeters in the front?
I mentioned earlier that you would NOT want to put the midbass in the rear. This is because midbass drivers are directional. It will distort your soundstange. You don't need rear speakers :)

David
Yea I read that... but I thought you were talking specifically about having the "midrange" speakers in the front. How is a midbass any different than a regular sub? Other than that it just plays a slightly higher frequency. What about it makes it any more directional than a regular woofer? I realize higher frequencies make a speaker more directional but what is the frequency at which a speaker would become directional to the point that it would start to distort your sound stage? The middbass drivers Im looking at only go up to 1000Hz. I am heeding what your saying Im just curious as to why?
Anybody want to answer that?
Generally speaking, it's not easy to localize low frequencies below 100hz. It has nothing to do with whether it's a mid/bass or subwoofer.
 

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I do have room for the midbass in the front, maybe Im just a little confused. I was thinking midrange speakers in the front with frequency response of about 150Hz-6Khz, with "midbass" speakers in the back playing around 20hz - 1KHz supplementing the subs which are playing 10-150 Hz. With the tweets doing everything 2,500Hz+. Im just trying to get an overlapping effect. Is this the wrong way to go about this?
I think we missed commenting about this specific question, so I'll give it a go. That much overlap seems a bit excessive to me. Unless your car has huge "holes" that soak up wide bands of certain frequencies, I think you are going to want as little overlap as possible. Overlap creates huge dB bumps for those frequencies, which is going to make certain tones/music sound really peaky. Also, different drivers might sound different producing the same frequency, giving you a "sound soup" of sorts. This makes it hard to get the music to sound smooth and linear throughout the response range. Also, one of the main benefits of crossovers (as mentioned above) is allowing your speakers to produce only the tones they are great at. With overlap, you are wasting this effect somewhat.

Of course, anyone can feel free to correct me on any of this, b/c I'm new too :)
 
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