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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All. Could have sworn I had posted here in the past, but the system didn't recognize me, so I guess not.
I did see a thread here the other day talking about 8" mid-ranges, but it was an old thread so didn't want to resurrect it and be confusing. I'm redoing my system after losing one channel of my sub amp. All but the radio was old Kenwood gear from the mid to late 80's. That's right, all three amps and the EQ were 35 years old. The current speakers will probably not hold up to the new amps, plus I want something in between the 2 Cerwin Vega 15" DVC subs and the the Lanzar Opti6 6.5 mid-range. Plans for later this year will be to add the 8" and replace the 15's with Rockford Fosgate P3D3-15's. Not finding much for the 8" mids though. The old article I found mentioned Stereo Integrity for a shallow 8". I've never heard of that brand. They do have a speaker, TM8, that looks very nice and has the right specs. But that's a bunch of money to spend on something unknown. Anyone have any experience with the brand? Since it's a brand new speaker that may still be on pre-order, I know no one will have any experience with that specific speaker. If you have some others to look at, I'm open to your suggestions. The only other speaker that seems to fit well is the Kicker 48CWRT84, which was more the price point I was hoping for. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
 

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If it helps, i have a pair of the kicker rt67 (6.75" version of what you're looking at) in my rear deck for midbass and i'm happy with them
 
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2018 Honda Accord EXL 2.0 GB 3way doors GB40/10 centre Helix M4dsp/M6 Sundown salt MMats + more
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I have a pair of TM8s on pre order and I'm very exited. There's only a hand full of ppl that have had theirs hands on them here and all say their great.

There is a ton of ppl that run the 6.5s and none have said anything negative about them.

Then they also have the SQLs in a 15" flavor that you should consider also
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Another great and proven option is the Stevens MB8 (available in 2 ohm and 4 ohm).

Link to a post of mine about the MB8 in a related thread:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I have a pair of TM8s on pre order and I'm very exited. There's only a hand full of ppl that have had theirs hands on them here and all say their great.

There is a ton of ppl that run the 6.5s and none have said anything negative about them.

Then they also have the SQLs in a 15" flavor that you should consider also
😍
Yeah, I looked at the SQLs before I saw your post. Too rich for my blood. Not to mention, at 67 yo, I'm not sure my ears could justify the bump in quality!!:unsure: Thanks for your input. That some already like them and your vote of confidence, I feel more comfortable purchasing 'ears unheard'. I'm usually a stickler for hearing a speaker before I purchase it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If it helps, i have a pair of the kicker rt67 (6.75" version of what you're looking at) in my rear deck for midbass and i'm happy with them
That's good to know. If that speaker had a normal shaped poly cone, I wouldn't have ever thought about looking at something else. (me showing my age) The shape first made me think that it could cancel some of the sound it was producing. At their, now, non-sale price being 40.00 more per speaker at Crutchfield, and mimicked by every authorized seller, I figure I can put another 60 bucks over the Kicker current price, on the Stereo Integrity units. If the price drops again, I may have trouble paying the difference. I appreciate the information!!
 

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Getting in to 8" mids brings on a bunch of questions.

Door mounted or kicks (Qts)?
High power (xmax) or high sensitivity (Steven's MB8 or other PA style)?
Intended xover to subs?
DSP to massage response?
Pure SPL or SQ (Le)?

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Getting in to 8" mids brings on a bunch of questions.

Door mounted or kicks (Qts)?
High power (xmax) or high sensitivity (Steven's MB8 or other PA style)?
Intended xover to subs?
DSP to massage response?
Pure SPL or SQ (Le)?

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For me, whatever speaker I end up with will be housed in custom made speaker pods at the bottom front of the door in my 2002 Ford E-250 Extended van. Kick panels in the van have little room for feet much less speakers considering there's half the length, or more, of the engine sitting between the driver and passenger. Kicker says the 48CWRT84's will work fine in a .2 to 1.0 cu ft box. I can get .26 or so with the pods I've designed, even factoring in the displacement of the speaker. How the TM8's will do in that size sealed 'box' since they are close to being infinite baffle speakers would be a question I would talk to them about before purchasing. Goal is for good quality sound. I like it to play loud, but I'm not trying to tickle the hair down in the ear canals. 15" subs will work off the sub out and the built in crossover/controls in my Kenwood head unit through the 400 watt mono block section of a 5 channel amp. The other four channels will be bridged for the 8" cross over in the 1k range. Then a 2X 60 for the 6.75 lower mids and 4X40 for 4" Upper mids and tweeters. I have an 8 channel DSP to handle the 4 sets of stereo speakers. I appreciate the questions. Let me know if you see an issue with what I've set up for the system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Just ordered an 8 and a 10 to try in the saddlebag of the bike.
Those do look nice. Picture makes them look a little deep for what I can use. Specs say they're slightly over 3 1/2"mounting depth. That would only leave about 1/4" space behind the magnet. Not sure that would be good. Hoping to keep the speaker closer to, or just under, 3" depth.
 

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The TM8s are meant for IB do t know how they will react in a tiny box. There is also no need to run 8s, 6.75s and 4" speakers. 4" speakers will mate very well with 8s. There is no need for the 6.75s. 8s, 4s, and tweeters ran active would be your best option.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The TM8s are meant for IB do t know how they will react in a tiny box. There is also no need to run 8s, 6.75s and 4" speakers. 4" speakers will mate very well with 8s. There is no need for the 6.75s. 8s, 4s, and tweeters ran active would be your best option.
Need to? No, likely not. And I'll still have that option to go back to. But I want to see what happens when I break the high bass to upper mid-range into three separate sections so each speaker is doing only a smaller, more specific part of the frequencies. Let each speaker shine in the middle part of their individual comfort zones, so to speak. Besides, the 4" I have right now only handle 20 watts RMS. But I really like their sound. We'll see what happens. Thanks for the options!
 

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0.26 cuft sealed would not work for the TM8 and will likely choke off most 8s including the MB8 or Faital Pros but let me run some models tomorrow and see what happens.

That will also give us an idea of where the xover should be but I'm going to suggest that the 8s should not go any higher than 300-500Hz as you want to keep male vocals all coming from the same point source.

So maybe 80-300-750-4k but if you give me the Sd of each driver then we can calculate where lobing and beaming will start for the top end and the bottom end needs to be 2x Fs for each driver to start.

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
0.26 cuft sealed would not work for the TM8 and will likely choke off most 8s including the MB8 or Faital Pros but let me run some models tomorrow and see what happens.

That will also give us an idea of where the xover should be but I'm going to suggest that the 8s should not go any higher than 300-500Hz as you want to keep male vocals all coming from the same point source.

So maybe 80-300-750-4k but if you give me the Sd of each driver then we can calculate where lobing and beaming will start for the top end and the bottom end needs to be 2x Fs for each driver to start.

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Thank you! I'll work on that. May be tomorrow to find all of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thank you! I'll work on that. May be tomorrow to find all of it.
I had links to more than I thought, but I doubt this helps. The mid-fi small speaker manufacturers just didn't produce that spec. At least not that I can find. But I greatly appreciate your offer. Maybe when I upgrade the rest of the speakers I'll see if the offer still stands!

Rockford Fosgate P3D4-15 15" Sd 894 (cm2)
Stereo Integrity TM8 8" Sd 35.17 in^2
Kicker 48CWRT82 alternate 8" Sd not specified. (convoluted shape of the cone?)
Lanzar Opti6pm 6.5" Sd not found just freq. response and power handling.
Kenwood KFC104 4" Sd not found just freq. response and power handling.
Rockford Fosgate FNP2401 3/4" Sd not found just freq. response, power handling, and crossover point of the passive crossover. (6.3kHz.)
 

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Hi All. Could have sworn I had posted here in the past, but the system didn't recognize me, so I guess not.
I did see a thread here the other day talking about 8" mid-ranges, but it was an old thread so didn't want to resurrect it and be confusing. I'm redoing my system after losing one channel of my sub amp. All but the radio was old Kenwood gear from the mid to late 80's. That's right, all three amps and the EQ were 35 years old. The current speakers will probably not hold up to the new amps, plus I want something in between the 2 Cerwin Vega 15" DVC subs and the the Lanzar Opti6 6.5 mid-range. Plans for later this year will be to add the 8" and replace the 15's with Rockford Fosgate P3D3-15's. Not finding much for the 8" mids though. The old article I found mentioned Stereo Integrity for a shallow 8". I've never heard of that brand. They do have a speaker, TM8, that looks very nice and has the right specs. But that's a bunch of money to spend on something unknown. Anyone have any experience with the brand? Since it's a brand new speaker that may still be on pre-order, I know no one will have any experience with that specific speaker. If you have some others to look at, I'm open to your suggestions. The only other speaker that seems to fit well is the Kicker 48CWRT84, which was more the price point I was hoping for. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
Si shouldn’t be considered unknown. Several on here use their stuff and it’s considered a good brand. That is just the 8” version of the 6.5 they sell. Also want to make sure are you looking for a midrange or midbass. They have both in 8” but that are very different applications
 

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I had links to more than I thought, but I doubt this helps. The mid-fi small speaker manufacturers just didn't produce that spec. At least not that I can find. But I greatly appreciate your offer. Maybe when I upgrade the rest of the speakers I'll see if the offer still stands!

Rockford Fosgate P3D4-15 15" Sd 894 (cm2)
Stereo Integrity TM8 8" Sd 35.17 in^2
Kicker 48CWRT82 alternate 8" Sd not specified. (convoluted shape of the cone?)
Lanzar Opti6pm 6.5" Sd not found just freq. response and power handling.
Kenwood KFC104 4" Sd not found just freq. response and power handling.
Rockford Fosgate FNP2401 3/4" Sd not found just freq. response, power handling, and crossover point of the passive crossover. (6.3kHz.)
So 1st things 1st, using the drivers you have is fine but for a very small investment you can do so much better... Silver Flutes and Dayton Reference would make a world of difference.

The Kicker is a huge no due to Inductance, you wouldn't get hardly any useable output between the chocked off enclosure and the top end roll off - You'll see when I graph them...

The Kenwood does not appear to exist... there's a KFC-S104 that's a blue IMPP Cone with a paper whizzer cone on the dust cap that was apparently an aviation speaker... is this what it looks like?
Camera accessory Cameras & optics Camera lens Automotive lighting Window


But as for the actual physics of things, lets take a look.

15" Sub at 894 cm^2 = 16.87 cm Radius = 13.28" Diameter
8" Midbass at 35.17 in^2 = 3.346 in Radius = 6.692" Diameter
6.5" Bass = 74mm Radius Cutout = 5.83" Diameter
4" Midrange at 50 cm^2 = 4 cm Radius = 3.15" Diameter
3/4" Tweeter at 2.8 cm^2 = 0.944 cm Radius = 0.743" Diameter

So we take the diameter of the driven surface area and calculate the frequency that correlates to that dimension and that is the point at which the driver will start beaming (and lobing "generally" starts around 1/3 octave below that point and the numbers we'll use here are approximations cause you really don't want to get close to that frequency) so we use these rules of thumb along with the 2x Fs (except for Subs which play below Fs with no problems when properly aligned) to establish a starting bandpass for each driver in a multi-way setup.

DriverActive DiameterFsBeamingLobingXover
1513.28N/A1,106.8631,00060 LP
86.692582,017.9221,80060-250 BP
6.55.83692,316.2842,200250-1,000 BP
43.15854,286.964,0001,000-4,300 BP
2.52.11126,430.456,200300-6,300 BP
3/40.7432.8k18,174.8816,0005,600 HP

So the TM-8 can easily play up to 1kHz and with the 4" Fs (from the Dayton Reference 4" Midrange) being 170Hz (2x Fs) you've now got 3 different drivers all dedicated to the same coverage from 170-1,000 which is fine but you're going to have a time trying to keep phasing accurate through all these xovers.

The real problem is going from the 4" to the 3/4" Mylar Tweeter.

4" starts beaming at ~4.3kHz and 2x Fs for the Tweeter is ~5.6kHz so you've got a coverage hole between 4.3-5.6kHz which means you either need to go to a 1" tweeter with a lower Fs or go to a smaller midrange (much better idea since most 2.5 widebands will easily cover from the 2k-5.6k range or higher.)

Having said all of that, you really should look at point source imaging studies and how well a wideband can mate to the 8" Midbass to really simplify what you are doing - then add the 3/4" Tweeters if you need more high end sparkle later on. The 3 leading contenders for widebands are the CDT Unity 8, the Audiofrog GB25 (or GS25) and the Morel CCWR254 where nearly all of them can easily cover 300-6,300Hz and Higher if you have them on-axis.

Back to the 8" Midbasses and WinISD 101:
Red = TM8
Yellow = 48CW
Green = Silver Flute 8

All modeled in 0.26 cuft sealed / 80Hz LR4 HP / 250 Watts RMS:
Rectangle Slope Font Parallel Screenshot


They all look pretty good so far but let's enable Inductance Simulation on the Advanced Tab:
Rectangle Slope Font Parallel Screenshot


Uh-oh, Kicker we have a problem - the ~21mH Inductance is literally destroying all the output.

So then we go to the Excursion Tab and see how much power they can take before xmax:
Rectangle Slope Font Plot Screenshot


All good on 250 W RMS with 80Hz LR4 HP.
And then we go to the SPL Tab and see what we've got (and we'll add in Standard Cabin Gain from 85-15Hz):
Rectangle Product Slope Font Screenshot


...remember when I said Kicker is bad for having real high inductance cause they don't do anything to limit it?

The TM 8 has a response peak due to the High Q in a small enclosure.

The Enclosure size is about perfect for the Silver Flute 8 and it has the best SQ curve of the bunch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Si shouldn’t be considered unknown. Several on here use their stuff and it’s considered a good brand. That is just the 8” version of the 6.5 they sell. Also want to make sure are you looking for a midrange or midbass. They have both in 8” but that are very different applications
I probably should have said unknown to me. I've learned about a lot of brands I've never heard of before these past couple of months! I realize there is a difference in the midrange vs midbass. Something that goes down to the 60-80Hz range is what I want to make that bridge from the sub, and I've seen that in the specs of both speakers. But the midbass units usually cut off at 200Hz, give or take. I want to get a little higher than that, so I'm think the midrange is more what I'm looking at. Thanks for the confirmation on the SI unit. It's a sweet looking speaker!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
WOW!!! Thank you!!!!! That's some in-depth info, right there. That the best 8" for my situation is so reasonably priced is a surprise to me. (and my checking account!!;)) I've never heard of a wool cone before. Will do some research on that, but being it won't be subject to the moisture of being inside the door, it should be fine. On the Kenwood 4"...I think what you posted is what I have. I'm remembering the part number on their original 4" back in the 80s when I was selling and installing car audio. Which, I'm telling ya, is nothing like it is today. The KFC104 had a square grill and a white or light grey cone, IIRC. I really like the sound on these for voice. Figure I'll blow them, though with the amp they'll be running on. Hoping limiting the frequencies they'll be playing will help them last a little longer. But I almost lost the end of my left pinky installing them, so we'll see if the savings on the 8" will allow my Scottish heritage to let me spend 300.00 on 2.5" midrange.:rolleyes: Maybe I'll talk myself into trying some fiberglass work and build pods on the A-pillars for the Unity 8's and 3/4" tweets to move the soundstage to the top of the dash instead of the middle of the dash where it is now. (4" are in the knee bolsters at the lower edge of the 6.5's in the door, and tweets are at top of the door sail panel/mirror covers)
Thank you for the work you put in to help me! And thanks to all of you for your suggestions and help. This place is has the same type quality individuals as the two woodworking forums I've been on for the past 18 years!! And that's a GOOD THING!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
0.26 cuft sealed would not work for the TM8 and will likely choke off most 8s including the MB8 or Faital Pros but let me run some models tomorrow and see what happens.

That will also give us an idea of where the xover should be but I'm going to suggest that the 8s should not go any higher than 300-500Hz as you want to keep male vocals all coming from the same point source.

So maybe 80-300-750-4k but if you give me the Sd of each driver then we can calculate where lobing and beaming will start for the top end and the bottom end needs to be 2x Fs for each driver to start.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Continuing to contemplate my best route for this... Any and all ideas continue to be welcome. I'll include a picture of the door panel so you can see the step well and the door trim with separate 'cubby' holes to store things. So my question is, since no matter what I do, this factory piece with the storage will have to come off the door panel. What if I extend the 'pod' to cover this whole space? The area is about 13" tall, 25" wide, and a usable depth of about 4.75". If I left the entire rear of the 'pod' open, would this simulate an infinite baffle and allow the TM8's to work properly? I mean, the inside of this extended van is pretty cavernous!!:unsure: Part of my thought is I'm leery of a paper or woven cone material absorbing moisture. Especially getting rained on when getting in and out of the van. Or if there is an 8" shallow speaker with a poly cone and rubber surround, I'd be interested in that, too. My searches haven't shown anything like that. But then, it didn't show any of the speakers recommended here either, so I know there are likely speakers out there I've not seen. Oh, and the amp used for this woofer will be bridged to run 180 watts RMS at 4 ohm. So if it's a dual voice coil speaker, it will need to be 2 or 8 ohms per coil so I can run it at 4 ohms. I can always limit the gain if need be.
Also note: Sound Shield will be used on both sides of the door panel and the sheet metal behind the door panel.
Automotive exterior Auto part Gas Personal luxury car Family car
Thanks for looking in!!! Jim.
 
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