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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So i know going 3 way frees up the drivers to concentrate on the Freq they can best reproduce...

but in some cars its not easy to do a 3 way set ( i envy you people that have a spot for the mids in the dash)

So ive seen and read that a 2 way gets excellent results if you go with a wideband or a tweeter that can go super low. Ive had my eye on the new Focal FRAK tweeter. Still on the fence and waiting for reviews as this is a new driver.

But my question is do you run into the same or similar issues as when a door located midbass/mid driver is low in the door? or are higher Freq easier to tame?

IDK what my xovers would be set to yet without testing and tuning but i was just wondering what type of problems i may have to face when considering a 2 way?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks. I know this but my questions or concern is just cause a speaker “can” play that low should I RUN a speaker that low ?
Will I run into issues like we do when running the mid bass into the midrange territory.

or are the inherit issues with the mid bass mainly due to its door location?

the FS on the FRAK tweeter is 160hz so say you ran it 350hz and up (or whatever xover point)

will I run into tuning dilemmas that are hard to iron out. In other wordsI’m trading one issue for the other?

I’m hopping the latter is easier to tune…

sorry English is my second language so I can’t articulate my words as easy.
 

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That tweeter will not play lower than 600hz; probably it will warp crossover towards 600hz where is impedance raise. Speaking of door mounted midbass in lower front portion depending on a cabin dimensions will almost certainly bring dip or multiple dips in 400 to 900Hz (potentialy causing dip in higher octave) which could be avoided using wideband playing down low to 300Hz. I would start with measuring whatever 6.5 midbass you have; starting by measuring from listening position and than substracting it with nearfield measurement to see cabin impact on a speaker acustics which can further be aplied to almost any 6.5 speaker. From that point you will see how low you will need to put xover to avoid mess. This will also determine which tweeter/wideband will be capable to get along. Also you could encounter dips in tweeters/widebands this heavily depends how you angle them and where you install them...In the end with such case its about how much room you have to play with to avoid playing speakers in "mess" which will further more get your life easier when tuning.
Making proper SQ out of 2way consisting a tweeter with a door mounted 6.5" is hughe pain in the ass. Go with widebands and don't listen to clowns who says that 2 way is easier than 3 way; you pay that lack of one set of speakers later in tuning.
 

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2018 Honda Accord EXL 2.0 GB 3way doors GB40/10 centre Helix M4dsp/M6 Sundown salt MMats + more
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GB25 fits perfectly right there. That's where I put mine. Installer wanted to flush mount there with a grill, but I told him to build a pod instead, so it wasn't so sunken in to the door. Response is decent there. A slight null around 400 but nothing crazy. You won't be able to use the grill if you flush mount it though.

Just a thought if you wanted to go 3 way.

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Or pillar build
 

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GB25 fits perfectly right there. That's where I put mine. Installer wanted to flush mount there with a grill, but I told him to build a pod instead, so it wasn't so sunken in to the door. Response is decent there. A slight null around 400 but nothing crazy. You won't be able to use the grill if you flush mount it though.

Just a thought if you wanted to go 3 way.

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Or pillar build
You wod be amazed at what that extra 4 or 5 inches of width would done for you.
I think you should let him sink in the door as much as he can.
He probably wanted to keep on the same plane as the tweeter. You should really let him.
 

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2018 Honda Accord EXL 2.0 GB 3way doors GB40/10 centre Helix M4dsp/M6 Sundown salt MMats + more
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You wod be amazed at what that extra 4 or 5 inches of width would done for you.
I think you should let him sink in the door as much as he can.
He probably wanted to keep on the same plane as the tweeter. You should really let him.
🤦🏽‍♂️
 

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Can you say more about the reason behind this statement? Thanks.
99% of the time they do not have enough space for the driver.
Especially when you consider that 99% percent of the drivers you see here today are car audio drivers that are designed for infinite baffle.
Will they work in a pod.....sure. But they work significantly better when that pod is vented.
Going deeper the pod itself has an resonance.
Most of the time. Especially the valicar pods.
Extremely small. Extremely. Put any mid in one of those little metal pods. They ring.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Taken out of context…. Errr never mind lol

I considered a mid in the door and that GB 25 is perfect for that purpose.

The 10th gen accord has difficult lines to mod something and make it clean and oem’ish looking.

I’ve seen some gorgeous a pillars made but I’m not plunking down $2k plus to fab up pillars when I keep my cars 4 yrs max.

I considered this spot but I know it wouldn’t look right Automotive design Personal luxury car Automotive exterior Vehicle door Rim
 

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I’ve seen some gorgeous a pillars made but I’m not plunking down $2k plus to fab up pillars when I keep my cars 4 yrs max.
Pillars are not hard at all.

All that's needed is planning, and they can be completed in a weekend and with some elbow grease.

Plus, they are easier and less costly to replace than door cards.
 

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I never saw a car in which 3-way couldnt be installed,....you have option to go with Dash, pillar, upper door, sails, kick panels,....now with 2-3" mids/widebanders the task is even easyer, and final results will most definitely outperform 2-way system.
If you can find widebandeers that work good in upper registers 10k+and are capable to work from 400-500Hz and up that is definitely a good solution, but such drivers will need to be installed on-axis for good results.
Option is also a good 2,5 way system

Pillars are not easy at all if you want to end up with nice design, painted finish or combination of different finishes and great functionality,...they are relatively easy if you just slap drivers on pillars off-axis, wrap them in fleece and call it a day.
 

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The key reason why a 3 way is preferred is because the mid is in the door. That causes problems with frequency response that a DSP or tuning won't cure. The chosen option seems to be limiting the problem by limiting the response from that speaker.

That solution brings is own set of challenges though. More drivers requires more filters which creates additional phase and delay issues that can be difficult or impossible to completely solve. Especially in such a reflective environment.

The other problem can be distortion. The vast majority of distortion is introduced by the speakers. Finding the lower limits of a midrange to resolve the acoustical issues from a door mounted speakers can increase distortion to as much as 30% according to Linkwitz Labs research. Dedicated midranges aren't in the optimal enclosure and driven near mechanical limits which effects its sound quality across its usable range.
The tweeters xover is usually on the higher side due to the big overlap between at and the mid. The higher xover point doesn't create unique problems but it amplifiers them. Take an xover point of 3500Hz with an LR24 filter. Is a good choice because of phase characteristics but there are other things to consider. As you move away from the xover frequency the group delay increases. So the tweeter is 24db down by 1750Hz and the mid by 7KHz. As each one moves away from 3500Hz there is a increasing delay in the signal. This means that each driver's signal us out of time with each other from about 1750-7KHz. This is usually noticeable as a loss of focus and a lower xover WITHOUT ADDING DISTORTION FROM THE TWEETER would be better. Delay settings won't help this, only move where its noticeable since this varies with frequency.

So my philosophy is this should be solved by putting the midrange/mid bass driver in a better location. Kickpanels/ firewall are a great option. In my 2way I have an oxer point centered around 1500Hz. My delay differences are between 750-3000Hz. A much smaller range so less unfocused information to deal with.
I've done a lot more to avoid something far worse. Take these issues and multiply them by 100. A 3500Hz note is about 4" how many times and in how many directions is that reflected before it starts to reach you? How much had it interacted with a speaker playing the same note? If a 3500Hz note were a snowflake your hearing a blizzard. Each snowflake (note) is unique (magnitude, phase, time) and complex (it can contain vocals, guitars, piano, drums etc) That's whatmakes car audio so much fun and so damn frustrating.

Can a 2 way work, absolutely. I was away for almost 20 years and honestly I hoped by now things would have advanced to have a viable 1 way option. That was always the dream but instead I found a 3 way was required.
No matter what you do, xovers shouldn't be an afterthought. You can drastically effect the way a system sounds. Is the first step in tuning and critical for the end result. I tried over 2 dozen xovers in a 2 way over at least a month before I moved on to tuning anything else.
 

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So i know going 3 way frees up the drivers to concentrate on the Freq they can best reproduce...

but in some cars its not easy to do a 3 way set ( i envy you people that have a spot for the mids in the dash)

So ive seen and read that a 2 way gets excellent results if you go with a wideband or a tweeter that can go super low. Ive had my eye on the new Focal FRAK tweeter. Still on the fence and waiting for reviews as this is a new driver.

But my question is do you run into the same or similar issues as when a door located midbass/mid driver is low in the door? or are higher Freq easier to tame?

IDK what my xovers would be set to yet without testing and tuning but i was just wondering what type of problems i may have to face when considering a 2 way?
just have me build you some pillars already !
 
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Pillars are not easy at all if you want to end up with nice design, painted finish or combination of different finishes and great functionality,...they are relatively easy if you just slap drivers on pillars off-axis, wrap them in fleece and call it a day.
To be fair, not everyone is looking for the level of detail in pillars you can accomplish and others. Moreover: to say doing pillars are hard is disingenuous.

I follow your work, and nothing you do I would consider hard.

Time-consuming yes.

You have developed your skill and eye for detail over the years and can produce a well-designed and beautiful product.

All this was done through many iterations and technique implementation until you develop your signature designs.

What you and others who do the same level of work have done, almost anyone can accomplish through time, dedication, and the willingness to push through failures.

I don't understand why some in this hobby treat it like we are doing rocket science, and to achieve anything in this hobby is out of the reach of the average person.

No one was born knowing what they know.

Their knowledge is built on the knowledge of others before them.

Shame on me for believing the OP can take matters into his hand and produce some pillars to his liking without destroying his car door.

The worst that can happen is he fails and has to start again.

If a person decides to put the driver off the axis, slap some fleece, and call it a day, that's their choice; it takes nothing away from you or anyone's accomplishment or skill.

Sometimes good enough is just that, good enough.

Any how, who am I to say anything?

I'm just some dummy on the internet with an opinion.
 
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