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So I'm listening to my stereo and I play my favorite old school progressive rock track, you know, Genesis? So it comes to the part where the bass organ gets really low and deep so I crank it up a little and eh? Whats up with this, ahh? Where's the bass?! Ok so I'm not going to give my sub a "bad rap?" because it does smack pretty hard when the music calls for it, it just doesn't play low or so deep. Maybe it needs more than 500 watts, I don't know but all I know is my RTA plot shows I ain't got nuthin below 60 hz or thereabouts- I ain't even got any cabin gains. So I do all this research and read all these threads about the best "SQ" 12 inch subs and all, and you people really know what's doing I can say that much. Basically I built my "box" a little larger than JL specs for a sealed enclosure but the sub models with a rather high F3 (the frequency where the output is -3db and output begins to decline by 12db every octave below that frequency). So my current sub has an F3 of 47 Hz, which seems quite high for a sub roll-off frequency- if you want deep low end bass and your vehicle exhibits minimal measured cabin gain.
So I hit the online catalogs and spec sheets looking for a 12" sub that can model with as low of an F3 as reasonably possible for the enclosure size I have and with a "Qtc" of .707 or as close as possible.
So playing lower frequencies is definitely on the priority list.
Then I starts readin about these subs that seem to "blend" and that you can't tell if its really playin, you know like transparent? Hmm, sounds a little strange but I read on... after all, my sub seems to be a bi-personality- it's either disappeared all the way or it's really there, too much "there". I would have to say this ain't your typical HQ SQ. Sos I add "blending in" and "SQ" to my list of upgrade priorities.
I starts readin about these subs that are "musical" too. Most of them are from over by europe or so it seems. Not bad. I read about this Morel Ultimo. Minga thats an expensive sub. I aint payin that much even if it is made in Italy. Then I stumble on Peerless and Scanspeak subs. Hey, I had a scanspeak tweeter and they was high line. So I plug the thiele small parameters into the spreadsheet and voila, the ScanSpeak Discovery 12" subwoofer would give me an F3 of around 37 Hz with a Qtc of .72. Ayy, I been doin lots of looking and this aint too bad. So I go with it and see what happens.

As yous can see by the attached pics this new ScanSpeak sub seems smaller than my original JL. Marone, the surround is nearly twice as big! The magnet seems a little smaller as does the install height. The frame on the Scan is nice and sturdy being a casting vs. the JL stamped sheet-metal design. Missing from the Scan subwoofer flange is any sort of sealing material (The JL sub has a nice rubberized sealing surface on the flange). I'll have to make a foam sealing gasket. The terminals on the Scan are standard variety 1/4" male connecting terminal vs. the JL spring locked terminal so I'll have to crimp some female connectors to the sub box wiring. As I'm ready to button it all up I notice the mounting holes on the new sub line up exactly with the old ones, so I am thankful for that.

So there's the pic of the sub "in-situ" if you knows what I'm sayin which means I am ready to actually hear how it sounds.
After a few errands drivin around and tuning it in it seemed very weak. Must be breakin in or something. Then I put on my old Genesis CD. Fast forward to the bass organ at the 7:00 mark of "Firth of Fifth" off the Selling England by the Pound CD (at this point you gen X, Y and Z'ers are going like WTF? right?) so ayyy, learn something ahhh? Anyway the bass organ came back to life! Not overpowering but deep and low nones the less. Then I put in a few other CDs with deep low bass and a sumthin a little familiar is goin on- oh yeah, it sounds a little like the JL sub when i had it in this big ported box the size of a small refrigerator. It was tuned to 30Hz. So the low notes are back! But the SQ so far ain't muddy or loose like the ported box sometimes sounded.

Goals of the Sub Upgrade-
1) Lower frequency output.
2) Better overall SQ.
3) More musical, less over the top.

So I'm gonna let this thing play for a few weeks and let the sub break in, tune it a little more, get some experiences with it. Then I'll do some RTA measurements and report back with some updated info and see if the upgrade goals were achieved. Off to a good start though, I can say that much.
 

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What I really like about these and the Peerless XXLS line is that the pole vents out the front on the voice coil. That mean you don't need to leave any room behind the sub so it can breath. You don't even need to have the magnet in the box for that matter. Just cut away a precise hole the diameter of the magnet, press fit the sub in a perimeter of CCF and you are looking at a functional mounting depth reduction of more than 1"! Or even more if the floor your sub box will go on has a indentation large enough for the magnet to fall in.
 

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I look forward to the review in time. I'm glad it appears to be working out for you so far however. I do have a couple questions and a comment about your box tho. First, nice touch putting the terminal block on the top of the box. I wish I had thought of that as mine is on the side and a royal PITA to get at. Your box looks almost identical to the one I built but I never gave it any appearance other than unfinished mdf. Did you just paint yours or is that some other kind of finishing? What is with all of the screws in the box top too? A number of them look to be far away from the edges - just curious.

When I was looking around for a sub I had few choices as I had only about 6 inches of sub depth available. The Ultimo (while pricey but got good deal thanks to this site) was perfect it seemed. It was not my number one choice but it was probably number 2. The sub I wanted to try out the most mainly due to reviews I had read from people with experience was the ID Max 12. It was almost 3 inches too deep tho.
 

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So I'm listening to my stereo and I play my favorite old school progressive rock track, you know, Genesis? So it comes to the part where the bass organ gets really low and deep so I crank it up a little and eh?
The minute I read this I knew exactly which track you were talking about!

Thanks for the review.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I look forward to the review in time. I'm glad it appears to be working out for you so far however. I do have a couple questions and a comment about your box tho. First, nice touch putting the terminal block on the top of the box. I wish I had thought of that as mine is on the side and a royal PITA to get at. Your box looks almost identical to the one I built but I never gave it any appearance other than unfinished mdf. Did you just paint yours or is that some other kind of finishing? What is with all of the screws in the box top too? A number of them look to be far away from the edges - just curious.

When I was looking around for a sub I had few choices as I had only about 6 inches of sub depth available. The Ultimo (while pricey but got good deal thanks to this site) was perfect it seemed. It was not my number one choice but it was probably number 2. The sub I wanted to try out the most mainly due to reviews I had read from people with experience was the ID Max 12. It was almost 3 inches too deep tho.
i basically sprayed the box with that rustoleum texture paint- one coat and not very carefully done just to get some paint on it. the sides are very uneven because off all the glue on the surface before I painted- i used a putty knife to spread out the glue once the edges were clamped together.
the interior screws are securing the bracing structure- there is a 3/4 x 1-1/2 inch oak rail that runs along all interior corner edges as well as a beam in the center with (2) column braces to support the long surface of the top and bottom pieces. i did not want this box to deflect, flex or resonate.

and i feel your pain about woofer depth limitations- putting the box in the rav trunk area doesn't leave much room for height if you want to use the cover to keep the stock stealth look. the trunk floor actually slopes as well, deeper near the interior and shallow near the rear door. plus you had to account for the woofer surround and leave a gap between the trunk floor!
What that means is that you can't run with those honkin subs that look like rocket launchers and seem deeper than the woofer diameter.
for reference my box overall dimensions are 8.375 H X 14.125 D X 29 L.
 

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I've most recently went from a JL 10W6v2 to a 10w7 to 12w7 and now the ID Max 12" (all sealed enclosures) a step pretty much in the right direction every time...since the ID Max I've been stung again to try something maybe even better "the" Morel Ultimo 12" From what I've read that seems to be exactly what I'm looking for; I'm growing tired of aggressive subwoofer that play loud but have no finesse in doing so, I'm not saying the above don't have finesse, they just seem to add something to the music that doesn't belong, they either play too loud or not loud enough, some music sounds good other doesn't!? The ID Max is the best subwoofer that I have owned, but after reading reviews here and there the morel seem to be where it's at!

I've spent ssssoooo much money on car audio that if it only takes $700 to finally find true sub happiness (hopefully) I'd be willing to spend it.


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I've most recently went from a JL 10W6v2 to a 10w7 to 12w7 and now the ID Max 12" (all sealed enclosures) a step pretty much in the right direction every time...since the ID Max I've been stung again to try something maybe even better "the" Morel Ultimo 12" From what I've read that seems to be exactly what I'm looking for; I'm growing tired of aggressive subwoofer that play loud but have no finesse in doing so, I'm not saying the above don't have finesse, they just seem to add something to the music that doesn't belong, they either play too loud or not loud enough, some music sounds good other doesn't!? The ID Max is the best subwoofer that I have owned, but after reading reviews here and there the morel seem to be where it's at!

I've spent ssssoooo much money on car audio that if it only takes $700 to finally find true sub happiness (hopefully) I'd be willing to spend it.


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I run the Ultimo and it is definitely an acquired taste. I was told once, when I was looking around, the difference between the Ultimo and the IDMax is the IDMax is more likely to fill your vehicle with powerful bass and be more of an spl sub than the Ultimo ever would be. The Ultimo is pure sq. It does everything it should and nothing more. It digs deep and it blends effortlessly. It will never wake the neighbors however. Oh, and the Ultimo requires a shit tonne of power and that is no joke. If you don't have 1000 watts rms for it, don't even bother. I was told more like 1200 watts rms actually. I am running 1150 rms and I actually think at times it could use more.
 

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I run the Ultimo and it is definitely an acquired taste. I was told once, when I was looking around, the difference between the Ultimo and the IDMax is the IDMax is more likely to fill your vehicle with powerful bass and be more of an spl sub than the Ultimo ever would be. The Ultimo is pure sq. It does everything it should and nothing more. It digs deep and it blends effortlessly. It will never wake the neighbors however. Oh, and the Ultimo requires a shit tonne of power and that is no joke. If you don't have 1000 watts rms for it, don't even bother. I was told more like 1200 watts rms actually. I am running 1150 rms and I actually think at times it could use more.

All that you describe is what I am looking for :) I have 2 amps to pick from (which I own, the arc se2300 or Zapco reference 1100.1) I think (hope) that I'm covered when it comes to power :)

To the OP, keep us updated on your findings


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i basically sprayed the box with that rustoleum texture paint- one coat and not very carefully done just to get some paint on it. the sides are very uneven because off all the glue on the surface before I painted- i used a putty knife to spread out the glue once the edges were clamped together.
the interior screws are securing the bracing structure- there is a 3/4 x 1-1/2 inch oak rail that runs along all interior corner edges as well as a beam in the center with (2) column braces to support the long surface of the top and bottom pieces. i did not want this box to deflect, flex or resonate.

and i feel your pain about woofer depth limitations- putting the box in the rav trunk area doesn't leave much room for height if you want to use the cover to keep the stock stealth look. the trunk floor actually slopes as well, deeper near the interior and shallow near the rear door. plus you had to account for the woofer surround and leave a gap between the trunk floor!
What that means is that you can't run with those honkin subs that look like rocket launchers and seem deeper than the woofer diameter.
for reference my box overall dimensions are 8.375 H X 14.125 D X 29 L.
Rustoleum texture paint. Hmm, that's what I used on my speaker pods. I think I have some left actually. Probably not enough to do the entire box but it might be close. I am in waiting status on a new midbass amp now. Once it comes in I will have to rip everything apart again and reset all of my channels to their proper assigned duties.

You see, I am down 2 channels now which were my midbasses. One week of no midbass drove me over the edge so today I did something about it. I had two options. 1. Go back to a conventional 2 way setup and leave my midranges out of it OR 2. Kill off my tweeters and run an unconventional 2 way setup with my midranges being used as widebanders. Well, I have never been one to go the conventional way:cool:. I went with #2 option. I just love these little Scans. I haven't really tuned yet but I was shocked that I was getting details I wasn't before with the Morel tweeters in the game. If nothing else comes from this experiment, I think I will at least be crossing these babies over a little higher than before. I'm curious what these things will measure like on the RTA going full range and what cuts I will have to make. I didn't want to mess with the rcas at the dsp so I don't have the full 31 band eq to work with but for very temporary I think I can make do with the 10 band parametric on those channels.

Yes, yes, I know all about that weird sloping floor. I actually didn't bother with it too much. The woofer doesn't touch anywhere with my trim piece. What did you think of that crappy thin metal that Toyota gave us down there?!?!? I was very disappointed to say the least and I think that is where alot of the road noise eminates from. Did you get yours undercoated by any chance? I have really thought about doing that lately but want to know if it really does help with road/exhaust noise much.

Sadly, the midbass experiment will have to wait for a while. After having to shell out what I just did for a new midbass amp, I am a little dry on fundage now. In a couple months I might be able to sneak that by the wife. We'll see. It might of helped if I didn't decide to upgrade my midbass amp tho and went for a cheaper one. I figured, it was a great deal I got and why go in reverse tho. I thought 290 watts of Twister power was nice. I can't wait to see what 340 watts of Mosconi power does for me:D:eek:. I think ultimately, I want to move to all Mosconi power but I will have to wait and see what this one sounds like. BTW, I went with the One series 120.4 if you are curious. The AS100.4 was just a little too far out of budget and do I really need 450 watts on midbasses?:eek:
 

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All that you describe is what I am looking for :) I have 2 amps to pick from (which I own, the arc se2300 or Zapco reference 1100.1) I think (hope) that I'm covered when it comes to power :)

To the OP, keep us updated on your findings


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Yep, I think either of those would work great and better than my setup. I have been thinking about what to go to if I move completely away from Audison/Hertz which I think alot about. That Arc is on my list. The Zapco is way too big however. Some of the newer Zaps might cut it tho. Unfortunately, I need two amps to replace my 5.1k and am limited on both space and especially funds right now.
 

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Yep, I think either of those would work great and better than my setup. I have been thinking about what to go to if I move completely away from Audison/Hertz which I think alot about. That Arc is on my list. The Zapco is way too big however. Some of the newer Zaps might cut it tho. Unfortunately, I need two amps to replace my 5.1k and am limited on both space and especially funds right now.
Funny I replaced my Audison lrx 5.1k with 2 arc se's (2300/4200)...the arc sound full, but In a way I still miss my 5.1 (for a 5ch amp) it sure packed a punch and sounded wonderfully also. I have 3 Zapco's still new in box (1100.1 / 360.4 & 350.2) I've finally decided to go 3way active up front so I'll need to move the arc's to make room for the Zapco's! (hope I don't regret it!)

To the original OP, I thought I read on an other post that you were also considering the Morel Ultimo?



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Discussion Starter #12
james,
no, my car was not undercoated and i really don't notice much road noise from the back- maybe they upgrade the cover plus it had a full size "sport" piece of thick carpet covering the plastic covers.
sounds like you have quite a project on your hands. when you get a minute i would be interested in hearing about all the amps you ran / will run and the total power. did you do anything with the big three wiring or alternator?

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the ultimo actually "modeled" with the same lower F3, FB and near ideal Qtc as the ScanSpeak in my enclosure these were the only (2) out of dozens that I researched. I did not consider it because it would not fit (diameter is smaller) and it was more than I wanted to spend on a subwoofer.
 

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james,
no, my car was not undercoated and i really don't notice much road noise from the back- maybe they upgrade the cover plus it had a full size "sport" piece of thick carpet covering the plastic covers.
sounds like you have quite a project on your hands. when you get a minute i would be interested in hearing about all the amps you ran / will run and the total power. did you do anything with the big three wiring or alternator?

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sound sugstions-

the ultimo actually "modeled" with the same lower F3, FB and near ideal Qtc as the ScanSpeak in my enclosure these were the only (2) out of dozens that I researched. I did not consider it because it would not fit (diameter is smaller) and it was more than I wanted to spend on a subwoofer.

I am surprised that you say you do not notice much road noise from the back. Have you put in any sound deadening on the floor of the vehicle? I have and maybe that is why I notice most of my noise coming from the rear of the vehicle. I also have a v6 which might be why I notice so much more exhaust noise too. When it comes time to replace the muffler someday, I will seriously look into one that produces less noise if possible. I might look into getting a little more dampener for that area under the sub where I think alot of that noise comes from too. I put some in and it does have ccf and mlv back there and it did help for sure but I want more silence back there still.

As for the amps I have ran in this vehicle, I have only run two different ones so far. I have always had the Audison LRx 5.1k running my sub and tweeters. I did have it running my midbasses but when I went three way I bought an Audiosystem Twister F4/380 and bridged it for my midbasses to give them potentially twice the power. That is the amp I accidently fried about a week ago:mad:. The midranges were being powered by the B channels of my Audison. The new Mosconi amp I am waiting on will take the place of the Twister amp for my midbasses. So, my power will be as follows: Audison 5.1k - tweets - 50 watts (A class), midrange (150 watts - turned way down obviously) and sub (1150 watts) and the Mosconi will be producing 340 watts to my midbasses once again turned way down I think. I really am anxious to see what the Mosconi brings as I am really thinking of moving to all MOsconi amplification way down the road possibly. That would mean running 3 amps back there and a tonne more money going out however:confused: My next thing I think is going to be larger midbasses whenever I get some fundage back and I actually figure out which set I want to go with actually.

As for the Ultimo and the Scan sub you have, I think we both wanted the same things from it. I didn't actually look at the Scan sub and I kind of wish I had after what my 10f brings to the table for me. The Ultimo brings a beautiful sounding sub but it takes a tonne of power to move it and get the spl level I want. I also seem to have an issue with that 60 Hz frequency band we know of. I am curious if you will still have the same issue once you get around to rtaing it. I thought it was my cover doing something in that region but I tested that yesterday and still there even without the cover in place. I think I could get it all right if I were to get a 2nd sub and use more eq but there is no room for a 2nd and that would be expensive. I think if I can get a midbass in the doors that doesn't die at 60 Hz, it might work. I am pretty much down to two drivers - the cheap and the expensive. A Scan Discovery 8 or the Dyn mw182. There are aspects I like of both drivers and was a little surprised they have identical sd values (cone area). I like the Dyn's high qts (better for ib?) and its less than 3 inches depth but hate its price tag (even tho I have found a great deal on a new pair) and slightly wider might be an issue. The Scan I like the price alot but the depth is about an inch deeper which might be a problem. Also the qts is alot lower which might mean it won't play as well ib. Decisions. Hopefully, I will get to hear some larger midbasses in a couple weeks at my first car audio competition (as a spectator).
 

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Discussion Starter #14
james,
good luck with your new amp. you are running the best out there. you may want to try the mosconis on the midrange / tweeters- they sounded extremely clean when i heard the amps.
BTW I have no floor sound deadening. i have the V6 4WD sport with appearance package (no spare tire on door). I do not hear any exhaust or muffler noise either.
 

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Update on the Scan sub, 09/13/12.

After running this sub for 4 days it is starting to break in and increase its output. I'll wait a few weeks before I run the RTA but I can say right now that it is a much better SQ sub than the JL 12W3 was and there is no way I will go back to it.
The scan sub does play the lower notes- many many awesome sounding low frequency notes and sounds are coming from my music and radio than i ever had with the JL sub. They are low notes that have real shake-ability and rumble just by playing the ultra low freqs- this would be a great home theatre sub. the rumbles actually have definition though and they can change in pitch or volume depending on the music.
In effect hearing the really low notes on so much music is already meeting my expectations for the upgrade.
The JL would hit hard and crisp but only on a very limited frequency range- almost like it had one note that it did very well but that was it.
The scan is not quite as crisp as the JL during those type of notes but it still does sound very good when asked do do the typical sub "beats". Where it shines is the different notes and frequencies that it can also do. I am sold. Stay tuned for more updates as I know this one will get better as time goes on.
 

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james,
good luck with your new amp. you are running the best out there. you may want to try the mosconis on the midrange / tweeters- they sounded extremely clean when i heard the amps.
BTW I have no floor sound deadening. i have the V6 4WD sport with appearance package (no spare tire on door). I do not hear any exhaust or muffler noise either.
Maybe that spare tire is causing most of the noise I hear... That is about the only difference I can think of between our two vehicles back there. Mine SHOULD be alot quieter than yours due to all of the ccf/mlv I have wall papered all over the vehicle pretty much from the windows down. One guy did tell me that the rear door can be adjusted to shut tighter? I have not played with that as I really don't know how to go about that really and don't want to risk damaging something. The next time I take it in for service I might ask them about it.

As I have to move a pile of wires around to get the new amp installed, I was actually toying with the idea of trying out the new amp on the midranges/tweeters just for kicks. I need that power for the midbass ultimately however. Down the road if I move completely away from Audison like I have thought about for over a year now, it will be nice to know what the Mosconi can do on the higher frequencies. I am going to try to see if I can get the Twister fixed actually. I figured, why not I did really like the amp's sound and power. My installer/dealer guessed it was probably the output transistors I fried with the dmm and he figured around $250 repair. I thought that was stupid but it might be worth getting it at least looked at. It could be something alot more simple too. I have no idea who could do it here and would probably have to ship it out for repair. Is there anyone on here that could do a repair and possibly mod it a little in the process. One thing I would love is to get an actual real power terminal block installed on it. The factory power connections absolutely suck and it has been the one big thing I hated about that amp. Anyways, if anyone is willing PM me and we can discuss.

Sorry to side track this thread here a bit. I might just put up a thread on this on my own and see.
 

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Update on the Scan sub, 09/13/12.

After running this sub for 4 days it is starting to break in and increase its output. I'll wait a few weeks before I run the RTA but I can say right now that it is a much better SQ sub than the JL 12W3 was and there is no way I will go back to it.
The scan sub does play the lower notes- many many awesome sounding low frequency notes and sounds are coming from my music and radio than i ever had with the JL sub. They are low notes that have real shake-ability and rumble just by playing the ultra low freqs- this would be a great home theatre sub. the rumbles actually have definition though and they can change in pitch or volume depending on the music.
In effect hearing the really low notes on so much music is already meeting my expectations for the upgrade.
The JL would hit hard and crisp but only on a very limited frequency range- almost like it had one note that it did very well but that was it.
The scan is not quite as crisp as the JL during those type of notes but it still does sound very good when asked do do the typical sub "beats". Where it shines is the different notes and frequencies that it can also do. I am sold. Stay tuned for more updates as I know this one will get better as time goes on.
Glad to hear you are really digging the new sub. I have a question tho too. What kind of power are you running for your sub?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
500 watts of JL Audio Class D power. It is enough for the sub to keep up with the the loudest music that I can tolerate.

Why do you want to give up the Audison amps? Those are supposed to be right near the top of the SQ heap.
 

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I have actually talked to several guys on here that have moved away from them and mostly for the same reason I am thinking of doing it. If you want to discuss my reasons and what others have told me, just PM me on it. Lets try to keep this about that Scan sub now:D. Still doin' it for ya? I am really curious about that rta plot when you get it. I was playing with pretty much just the sub earlier today and confirmed the rta plot pretty much falls off the map any higher than about 60 Hz. This was with no other speakers playing and the crossover way up at 80 Hz. It really puzzles me. I am down to it is a vehicle anomaly or a problem with my box. I am starting to lean more toward the first. When I get some time (maybe Monday), I might just try hooking up my old Boston G2-10 and see if it does the same thing or not. If nothing else it will be a nice afternoon experiment. If it only wasn't so hard to take that damned box out.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Update 9/15/12
The more I listen to the new Scan Discovery sub the more I am completely satisfied with the upgrade and blown away with how much a difference it made. The ability to play the low notes / low frequencies is key- something most of us can do on paper doing modeling and using the T/S parameters in the spec sheets.
The link here is a very simple one but it will tell you the all important "F3" and box volume.
Speaker Box Enclosure Designer / Calculator

After testing about 30 or so 12" subs, (not the edible kind) most had an F3 of 45 to 50 Hz or above. To me, if your sub starts rolling off 3 db and 12 db per octave at 45 or 50 Hz, it is not doing its job! Basically you have a speaker that plays from 50 to 80Hz- no wonder it sounds like a one note wonder and is either on or off depending on the music!

Only (2) that I modeled had an F3 lower then 40 Hz (sealed), the Scan Discovery and the Morel Ultimo. I'm sure there are more but I was limited in depth and had an existing box volume of 1.4cuft. The really deep low end rumble and physical energy of the really low bass sounds is really a significant enhancement to your basic slam box sub.
So please do your modeling in advance of any sub purchase or enclosure construction / planning. Go low- you will not be disappointed!
 
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