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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Need highs, cost close to no object, LX470, figure kicks firing at opposite seated person head. Any input from you guys would be AMAZING! I really want to get this right the first time.

System: alpine 901 and 701, Probably upgrade to a deqx unit and a few more tr500.4's (active). tarantula on 3 13w7s, and TR500/4 (may upgrade to the xxx-6500d).

This forum got me hooked on the idea of trying ribbons.
 

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lmao!..conventional tweeters vs ribbon tweeters..lol..no contest..!

think of it this way..

the ribbon element is about half the thickness of household aluminum foil.. thats less then what the wire of the voicecoil of a conventional tweeter weighs! -thats not yet mentioning the former and actual domed diaphragm! hows a conventional tweeter going to keep up with that..?
 
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10K2HVN said:
lmao!..conventional tweeters vs ribbon tweeters..lol..no contest..!

think of it this way..

the ribbon element is about half the thickness of household aluminum foil.. thats less then what the wire of the voicecoil of a conventional tweeter weighs! -thats not yet mentioning the former and actual domed diaphragm! hows a conventional tweeter going to keep up with that..?
why, F=mA of course !

I'm a fan of ribbons as well, from my little experience with them ... so please don't misunderstand my intention. But mass doesn't tell the whole story.

Why? Two reasons, as I understand. Newton's famous relationship quoted above tells us that a larger mass can accelerate just as fast as a smaller one, if a larger force is applied. So if a larger moving-mass tweeter has a correspondingly larger magnetic force in the gap, it can accelerate just as fast. Second, to first order ... and I think this may perhaps be a crude oversimplification ... larger moving mass without an increase in force will accelerate slower, but by itself that may only manifest as lower efficiency, rather than frequency response or CSD trouble ... again, at least to "first order".
 

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parhaps i was oversimplifying it........
 

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Esotar is a good tweeter, although I'm not sure the price can be justified nowadays given designs such as the Seas t27, Usher, and Dayton reference that can easily compete with it at a fraction of the cost.

Focal utopia be. Well it has a fancy be diaphragm, but the worst motor/rear chamber I've seen on any tweeter. Also, the inverted cone always has that very poor top end dispersion in any design I've experienced.

I'm also very biased, but I like the sound of ribbons compared to any conventional tweeter. They sound more relaxed, spacious, and detailed to my ears.
 

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npdang said:
They sound more relaxed, spacious, and detailed to my ears.
thats because they ARE! :D

They sound more REAL to me. When i play the guitar (learning) and when i play music through my LCY's - there's nothing that comes closer! (individual driver-wise)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The only reason I hesitate on the ribbons, is that if you look at the 2 most highly regarded speakers in high fi at the moment: wilson audio maxx II (best sound of show CES 2004 and 2005, it uses no ribbons) and the VR9 and VR11 vonshwikert or however you spell it, use ribbons, but along with non ribbon tweeters.

That and when you look at the freqency response chart of ribbons and say the utopia BE, they both go far past 20k, and I've not seen much other objective data such as waterfall plot comparisons between them to see objectively what other differences there are.

only thrid reason I have is that every other super duper award winning speaker out there uses conventional domes and non ribbon tweeters, and has for a very long time. So unless there has been a recent decrease in the cost of the ribbon drivers, I don't know why all the other manufacturers out there are staying faithful to conventional drivers. (obviously there are some that use ribbons but they are far in the minority (genesis...).

Finally why aren't ribbons all over the sq circuits? In all the magaizines I've seen lately, it's still a conventionally dominated field.

I imagine I'll end up picking up a set of the dyn esotar 240's and whichever ribbons you guys suggest as best, install and see which sounds better.

Side note: as far as directionality, isn't poor dispersion much beter for our environment, allows us to point drivers at other side and make both seats happy, and reduces ratio of reflected to direct sound?
 

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Excellence said:
Finally why aren't ribbons all over the sq circuits? In all the magaizines I've seen lately, it's still a conventionally dominated field.
And it will be as it continues to die... the tuner crowd seems to be the norm & those guys are not interested in sound as much as they are into looks...

I've not tried ribbons, but that is because the Dayton RS is $50ea and it is an amazing tweeter... I do look forward to listening to a ribbon shod car... but until then... what you don't know wont hurt ya wallet :)
 

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Try to keep an open mind. There are a lot of high quality drivers out there that aren't so popular, and much lower in price because of that. Try to look past the "image" and into the quality of the speaker itself. Don't make the mistake of thinking a driver's popularity or magazine/show acclaim = it's quality and performance. Nothing could be further from the truth Imho.

As for top end dispersion, ribbons are the only driver's I've measured in-car that can reach 20khz flat at the listening position. There's alot of tweeters that claim 30-40khz+ response anechoically, but don't make it past 12-15khz in a car. And there is quite an audible difference in the presentation.
 

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npdang said:
Try to keep an open mind. There are a lot of high quality drivers out there that aren't so popular, and much lower in price because of that. Try to look past the "image" and into the quality of the speaker itself. Don't make the mistake of thinking a driver's popularity or magazine/show acclaim = it's quality and performance. Nothing could be further from the truth Imho.

As for top end dispersion, ribbons are the only driver's I've measured in-car that can reach 20khz flat at the listening position. There's alot of tweeters that claim 30-40khz+ response anechoically, but don't make it past 12-15khz in a car. And there is quite an audible difference in the presentation.
my mb quart 3/4" tweets can reach 20k :) at the headrest.
 
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Excellence said:
The only reason I hesitate on the ribbons, is that if you look at the 2 most highly regarded speakers in high fi at the moment: wilson audio maxx II (best sound of show CES 2004 and 2005, it uses no ribbons) and the VR9 and VR11 vonshwikert or however you spell it, use ribbons, but along with non ribbon tweeters.

That and when you look at the freqency response chart of ribbons and say the utopia BE, they both go far past 20k, and I've not seen much other objective data such as waterfall plot comparisons between them to see objectively what other differences there are.

only thrid reason I have is that every other super duper award winning speaker out there uses conventional domes and non ribbon tweeters, and has for a very long time. So unless there has been a recent decrease in the cost of the ribbon drivers, I don't know why all the other manufacturers out there are staying faithful to conventional drivers. (obviously there are some that use ribbons but they are far in the minority (genesis...).

Finally why aren't ribbons all over the sq circuits? In all the magaizines I've seen lately, it's still a conventionally dominated field.

I imagine I'll end up picking up a set of the dyn esotar 240's and whichever ribbons you guys suggest as best, install and see which sounds better.

Side note: as far as directionality, isn't poor dispersion much beter for our environment, allows us to point drivers at other side and make both seats happy, and reduces ratio of reflected to direct sound?
I heard these speakers at CES 2003 :

www.burmester.de/english/productlines/loudspeaker-b99-infos.html

I didn't want to leave the room. The pure musicality that oozed from these creations so far exceeded anything I've ever heard from a Wilson, you couldn't even compare them in the same category. Awards & magazine accolades are often biased and motivated by something other than pure performance ... you gotta trust your own ears. My opinion, of course.
 
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Oh, and yes ... poor off-axis dispersion can be your best friend in car audio, for exactly the reasons you mentioned : it helps to combat side-bias, and helps to control reflections.
 

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the ribbons are the truth if used properly--which is a big IF in a car--aiming is a must

I put em in, and then switched em out, and I SURE miss the spatial width they provided

I wish they were just smaller like maybe 3" around instead of 5"


if I was going to spend esotar/focal be money I surely get the ribbons
 

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werewolf said:
I heard these speakers at CES 2003 :

www.burmester.de/english/productlines/loudspeaker-b99-infos.html

I didn't want to leave the room. The pure musicality that oozed from these creations so far exceeded anything I've ever heard from a Wilson, you couldn't even compare them in the same category. Awards & magazine accolades are often biased and motivated by something other than pure performance ... you gotta trust your own ears. My opinion, of course.
those look quite beautiful...
 

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werewolf said:
I heard these speakers at CES 2003 :

www.burmester.de/english/productlines/loudspeaker-b99-infos.html

I didn't want to leave the room. The pure musicality that oozed from these creations so far exceeded anything I've ever heard from a Wilson, you couldn't even compare them in the same category. Awards & magazine accolades are often biased and motivated by something other than pure performance ... you gotta trust your own ears. My opinion, of course.
Werewolf,

I totally agree with you. Those magazines dished out award based on commercial gains.
I've heard the Be in a championship winning car & I'll be 100% honest it didn't sound as clear, open & transparent as I thought it would be. :(
 

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harrier said:
I've heard the Be in a championship winning car & I'll be 100% honest it didn't sound as clear, open & transparent as I thought it would be. :(
I don't think I would normally associate focal with "clear, open & transparent." They sound kind of thick, warm, and well..not open. lol. But who knows, maybe these Be's are nothing like the current focal line.
 
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SQ_Bronco said:
Anyone know which ribbon the burmester uses? All the home page says is that it is "manufactured to our specifications".
I sure don't :( but man they managed that crossover between the Excels and that ribbon beautifully. Well recorded (and well sung) female vocals will bring tears to your eyes. At CES they were playing the track from one of the Burmester test discs (highly recommended, if you can find them) that I've fallen in love with ... "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Radka Toneff (sp?).
Guys the room fell silent, as everone just listened in amazement. Everybody knew it was just one of those rare moments.

Yeah, they are that good. If npdang has figured a way to bring that kind of tonality into a car, my hat's off to him once again !!
 
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