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I will absolutely take a look at that this weekend. And nope, physics hasn't changed a bit since 83 (although my physique has, but I was born in 83 and that's a different story).

No worries at all about insulting, I'm here to learn as much as possible. Just for those wondering, my background is basically what my dad has taught me, and research I do on my own. I've been interested in flight and aircraft design since I was a kid. I won an invite to NASA's Space Camp program in 6th grade for a Space Craft design program, but was unable to go due to money. Initial intentions in junior high and high school were to go through the UC Davis Aeronautical Engineering program, but I generally had problems focusing in school as it was usually too easy, and bored me. I usually aced tests, but didn't do homework or class work. Then I also started slacking off when I started getting paid to jump motocross bikes my senior year.

My dad's background is a masters in physics, and 30+ years designing power supplies for everyone from NASA and the military, to Honeywell home thermostats. I can't say (and don't know everything hes built), but I know the F-16 gyroscopes used power supplies he's designed. He also is a hobby engineer, building a robotic vacuum 20 years ago that relied on radar to map out the house. He's also been working on a voice recognition/simulation program. His goal is realistic sounding human voice, and is using FEA and Navier Stokes equations to do it instead of the common Fourier transform equations (which result in the metallic sounding "Steven Hawking" voice. I have a file that I'll ask him about sharing, that simulates air blowing through a tube, and it actually sounds real. He said it took 500 billion calculations per file, and there are 3 different tube length/diameters. His goal is to as accurately as possible model an average human lung set, voice box, throat, mouth, etc, to attempt to make the simulation indistinguishable from real human voice.

He actually recently left the company he was with for 30 years to start his own project, although I can't yet divulge what his new project is, it is something that most people would assume is straight out of a movie.
My daddy's a fireman and can do 10,000 push-ups!
:D

Just kidding, sounds like you a pretty cool childhood.
 

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Discussion Starter #123
Lol, looking back, I can say that now. Ten years ago if you had asked me that, I would have had a very different answer. I got to do a lot of really cool things, but I was also extremely sheltered. No social life, and everything was extremely controlled. But I wouldn't change it, it made me who I am, and more importantly, I wouldn't risk the chance of not meeting my wife. Its not often you find someone as ADD, OCD, anti-social and as sheltered as a kid as myself lol. And one that could care less how much I spend on audio and motocross, as long as we don't go way into debt to do it.
 

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Just to follow up with the list below and the brands on the "wish list" at the end. I did email Knu Konceptz about this last week and they said they would take a look at the thread here on DIYMA and get back to me. That was on the 23rd and I have not heard anything yet. Hopefully it was just the holiday weekend keeping them away from email. If not, hopefully one of us can find a way to get some to Toostubborn'.

I'd kind of like to see NVX in there as well, and they do have a 25% discount available through Sonic Electronix right now.

This is the list as of right now.

Dynamat xtreme - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Pro 50 Mil - 2 12"x12"
GTMat Ultimate 80 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat 110 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Onyx - 1 12"x12"
Alphadamp - 1 10"x14"
SDS CLD - 2 6"x10"
Stinger Road Kill Pro - 2 6"x6"
Lightning Audio Deadskin - 1 8"x8"
StP Bomb - 1 sheet
StP Gold - 1 sheet
StP Silver - 1 sheet
StP Vizomat - 1 sheet
Peel N Seal - 1/3 Roll
Audio Tecknix


I'm at the limits of my budget right now, but there will be more things tested. I just need to wait for funds to catch up. Things on the wish list are Second Skins products, Cascade's products, Blackhole products, and Knu's products. I also want to try a spray on. Of course, if my motocross bike sells, this stuff will all be added to the list immediately.
 

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Discussion Starter #126
Dustin, I'll email them this week as well. I should have the magnets by friday, so I can start really getting things done, that's when the tracking number shows.

I ALMOST had the bike sold this weekend, but right before I was expecting a paypal, he blows his scam cover. But, its going on cycle trader, and possibly ebay, and when it goes, I'll pick up some NVX as well as some second skin, and cascade.
 

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Discussion Starter #127
Ok guys. I want to apologize for the delays. There have been some things happening here that are out of my hands, and will continue to for the next week. As of right now, I have everything I need to start testing. The magnets are epoxied to the accelerometer board and are curing as I type this, however, it will be at least tomorrow before I can even try them, and possibly not until next monday. The current list of products is the same as the last one posted for now, and the die is ready to cut them now.

The reason for the delays are family medical. As I posted a page or so back, my mom had been in the ER. She was back in the ER last saturday for an allergic reaction to a new medication. My sister in law was also in the ER sunday night, monday morning, and admitted to the hospital monday night with valley fever. At this point, it looks like she'll be flown to UCLA today as her lungs are filling with fluid and they can't figure out how to stop it locally. I will get this testing done as soon as I can, just bear with me for another week or two. I will probably be able to work a little during the week, but weekends will be out until this is resolved.


As for updates, my dad will be in town tomorrow with another program he wrote to communicate with the scope. If I'm not in town, I'll post from my phone how it worked.

Also, I have a second method I am going to use to attempt to show long term heat/cold cycle durability. For those who don't know, I live in the central valley, where it is often over 100 degrees during the summer. And since I am mostly riding to work right now, my car is sitting directly in the sun, perpendicular to the travel of the sun. So I am going to pull my headliner, and put a small 1"x1" sample of each deadener on the roof of the car, in a small grid, and watch them over the summer and winter. I will take pictures every week, or more often if the results are more dramatic. However, this means I will need to cut of donations and any other samples on June 30th. Since all samples need to go in at the same time to be fair, this is how it has to be done. (I will begin vibration testing before that, next week depending on family circumstances, but no later than the week after that). For anything that is purchased or sent after that, I will still test them in the oven, and all current samples will be tested in the oven as well. I just think that the in car test is the best way to do this.

I will be leaving work early to work on this project (vacation time) and will get pics of everything up.
 

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We can wait as long as needed while you support your family.
Best wishes to you all.
 

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Ok guys. I want to apologize for the delays. There have been some things happening here that are out of my hands, and will continue to for the next week. As of right now, I have everything I need to start testing. The magnets are epoxied to the accelerometer board and are curing as I type this, however, it will be at least tomorrow before I can even try them, and possibly not until next monday. The current list of products is the same as the last one posted for now, and the die is ready to cut them now.

The reason for the delays are family medical. As I posted a page or so back, my mom had been in the ER. She was back in the ER last saturday for an allergic reaction to a new medication. My sister in law was also in the ER sunday night, monday morning, and admitted to the hospital monday night with valley fever. At this point, it looks like she'll be flown to UCLA today as her lungs are filling with fluid and they can't figure out how to stop it locally. I will get this testing done as soon as I can, just bear with me for another week or two. I will probably be able to work a little during the week, but weekends will be out until this is resolved.


As for updates, my dad will be in town tomorrow with another program he wrote to communicate with the scope. If I'm not in town, I'll post from my phone how it worked.

Also, I have a second method I am going to use to attempt to show long term heat/cold cycle durability. For those who don't know, I live in the central valley, where it is often over 100 degrees during the summer. And since I am mostly riding to work right now, my car is sitting directly in the sun, perpendicular to the travel of the sun. So I am going to pull my headliner, and put a small 1"x1" sample of each deadener on the roof of the car, in a small grid, and watch them over the summer and winter. I will take pictures every week, or more often if the results are more dramatic. However, this means I will need to cut of donations and any other samples on June 30th. Since all samples need to go in at the same time to be fair, this is how it has to be done. (I will begin vibration testing before that, next week depending on family circumstances, but no later than the week after that). For anything that is purchased or sent after that, I will still test them in the oven, and all current samples will be tested in the oven as well. I just think that the in car test is the best way to do this.

I will be leaving work early to work on this project (vacation time) and will get pics of everything up.
Outstanding attention to detail!
The ceiling test is above and beyond.
We're all very thankful for your passion to do this project right.
Best wishes to your family.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR
 

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Thanks for the update Chris. If you need anything for the test, or on the personal side of things, just let me know!
 

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Discussion Starter #131
Thanks guys. Just didn't want to leave this hanging without at least an update to what was going on.

Dustin, depending on what goes on this weekend, I may be able to do a test of the measurement process, if your interested in checking that out.

I think I'm going to post raw data in this thread as it comes out. Then make everything pretty and post it at once after I get all the samples tested and start a thread titled CLD Testing Results, or something like that. I was struggling for a while with how to best present it, without getting a million posts in between me posting results, and I think that's the best option.
 

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Thanks guys. Just didn't want to leave this hanging without at least an update to what was going on.

Dustin, depending on what goes on this weekend, I may be able to do a test of the measurement process, if your interested in checking that out.

I think I'm going to post raw data in this thread as it comes out. Then make everything pretty and post it at once after I get all the samples tested and start a thread titled CLD Testing Results, or something like that. I was struggling for a while with how to best present it, without getting a million posts in between me posting results, and I think that's the best option.
We appreciate the update, but as already stated by Jazzi and others, take as much tame as you need, family should come first.

As with the results, I believe your method for posting results would be the best of both worlds.
 

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Discussion Starter #133
Well, the program was able to connect to and control the scope. So it looks like we will have automated testing. He is going to work the next two weeks on programing it to monitor both the accelerometer and the input signal to the speakers, for both voltage and phase. It will automatically be logged in MS Access, and then I will import it into Excel to get the results ready for publication.

Also, it looks like I will have some time tomorrow at home, so I will get the first test of the entire set up done, and post the results, and pics. Maybe even video.
 

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Chris, let me know what time and I'll try to swing by. Most of my day may actually be open, for once!
 

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Thanks guys. Just didn't want to leave this hanging without at least an update to what was going on.

Dustin, depending on what goes on this weekend, I may be able to do a test of the measurement process, if your interested in checking that out.

I think I'm going to post raw data in this thread as it comes out. Then make everything pretty and post it at once after I get all the samples tested and start a thread titled CLD Testing Results, or something like that. I was struggling for a while with how to best present it, without getting a million posts in between me posting results, and I think that's the best option.
Take your time sir, we appreciate the tests and just wanna see it done right and if snags are hit or family comes first, so be it. We all have a pretty good idea about deadener, this will just give us another tool to make better decisions and possibly help the deadener manufacturers out as well to produce better product. Let us know if you need anything else.
 

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Discussion Starter #136
Ill txt you later Dustin, thanks again guys. Looks like theyve gotten things under control, but it looks like shes going to have a 6+ month recovery. May be going home tomorrow, depending on how the fluid level is in the lungs, im over here right now.
 

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Discussion Starter #137
Well, everything was up and running today. rton20s came and took some pictures of the setup, the setup process, etc. As for the results, I need to go over some things before I reveal anything. I used a piece of deadening where I have extra laying around as sort of a calibration run, and need to work that out. I'll probably repeat it later this week, when my dad is here and work out the buts. As soon as I get that worked out, I'll post the raw data, and at that point I'll be ready to go to full scale testing.


I'm going to say this now, so people are ready for it. I believe the test results are going to be VERY close for the VAST majority of products. I think there may be some highs and lows, but I think similar products are going to be hard to tell apart. So close that this may become a game of pure cost, not even cost to performance.

That said, I really hope to be wrong. I'd hate to go through all of this and my suspicions not be proven wrong.
 

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I'm going to say this now, so people are ready for it. I believe the test results are going to be VERY close for the VAST majority of products. I think there may be some highs and lows, but I think similar products are going to be hard to tell apart. So close that this may become a game of pure cost, not even cost to performance.
Chris, I agree, this is my expected outcome... Still, I appreciate you going through all of this, it is MUCH appreciated!!!
 

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x2. We all know that no sound dampening can prevent all panel vibration so the results should look very similar for most. But considering the testing method using the small squares, the advantage of one over another would be exponential when used on the necessary panels with the 25% method. (This might not directly relate to a better SQ environment, because this is a test it is to get actual values on a given sample panel.)

So if you took the average amount (sq. ft.) of deadener used in a type of vehicle using the 25% method, divide by the testing dampener size, then multiplied by the reduced vibration value (difference between baseline and with dampener), you should have a theoretical whole car "gain" expected for brand X.

At least that's how I see it.
 

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This is really TOOSTUBBORN's thing, so he would probably be better to reply, but I'll throw in my thoughts as well. I was there for the initial SYSTEM test on Saturday. (Not a materials test, not even a base line test.)

I have to say, I agree with his initial observations. I have a feeling that the test results are going to be so similar that the differences in performance might be just about negligible. Unfortunate, for all of the testing efforts, but still valuable information. And I am POSITIVE that we'll have some people crying "foul" (perhaps even "manufacturers"), despite STUBBORN taking extensive efforts to make this a very controlled test.

Schmidder... I'm not so sure it will be as simple as applying a multiplier to the provided results in order to see how the materials would behave in a different (actual car door) environment. There are SO many variables to consider. Substrate material, pane size, panel shape, volume or space, etc., etc., etc... I think the results will have to be taken at face value with no accurate way of translating how it will translate to an in-car environment.

Another thought, and this is strictly my own, is that we might find out that while we reduce vibration at the panel's initial resonant frequency we could very well INCREASE it at another frequency. I guess the key would be to get the resonant frequency of the panel changed to a point where the vibration is either insignificant in terms of affecting sound quality or completely out of the range produced by the driver causing the vibration. Again, just my own thought.

In the end, I think what we will have is test results for a very specific and controlled environment for various dampening products. People will be left to draw their own conclusions. And as mentioned before, I am sure people will be coming out of the wood work to nay say the results. I will say, that having talked with STUBBORN, he has no horse in the race and is strictly interested in finding out how the products compare to each other.
 
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