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I have a new 2011 4runner I'm laying out a system for. I need to keep it all original looking so here's the question...I'm thinking of using CDT 3way components, midwoofer in the door and 3" & tweeter in the dash.
How or what can I do to correct any imaging issues?
There is no tweeter location on the door as in previous 4runners.
 

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depending where it is in the dash, you will have some issues. for one, if you have the speakers that far apart (speakers in the door and then in the dash) timing will become an issue. I am not a big fan of dash mounted tweeters. find a way to mount the tweeters near the door speakers and just disconnect the dash speakers.
 

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depending where it is in the dash, you will have some issues. for one, if you have the speakers that far apart (speakers in the door and then in the dash) timing will become an issue. I am not a big fan of dash mounted tweeters. find a way to mount the tweeters near the door speakers and just disconnect the dash speakers.
I don't really consider this good advice but more a sharing of personal preference.

To the OP, with modern DSP (digital sound processors) you can put speakers in a lot of non-ideal places and electronically compensate. It really depends on how much you want to spend and how much the SQ for the passenger matters. It seems you are choosing asthetics over all else (nothing wrong with that) and so you will likely sacrifice some performance for you and will definately sacrifice performance for the passenger. But look into active processors or headunits like th MS8, BitOne, P99 head unit, DRZ head unit, H701, etc. and they can help overcome poor placement by electronically compensating and matching the drivers up at at least one seat in the vehicle.
 

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I did say " I am no a fan of......" that would indicate personal preference. ALL advice is personal preference, lol. your preference is to advise him to fix non-ideal speaker placement with DSP, my preference is to not put speakers in non-ideal locations in the first place ;)

DSPs can and do have the ability to fix certain types of imaging problems, but if you start with a good base, then you have less to fix, it will sound better in the end. people were getting good imaging 20 years ago when DSPs for the car didnt exsist, it is posible. not to mention that if he places his speakers correctly he doesnt need a $5-800 dsp. (unless you want one :) )
 

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I did say " I am no a fan of......" that would indicate personal preference. ALL advice is personal preference, lol. your preference is to advise him to fix non-ideal speaker placement with DSP, my preference is to not put speakers in non-ideal locations in the first place ;)

DSPs can and do have the ability to fix certain types of imaging problems, but if you start with a good base, then you have less to fix, it will sound better in the end. people were getting good imaging 20 years ago when DSPs for the car didnt exsist, it is posible. not to mention that if he places his speakers correctly he doesnt need a $5-800 dsp. (unless you want one :) )
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but since you're putting words in my mouth...here were go.

I have a new 2011 4runner I'm laying out a system for. I need to keep it all original looking so here's the question...I'm thinking of using CDT 3way components, midwoofer in the door and 3" & tweeter in the dash.
How or what can I do to correct any imaging issues?
There is no tweeter location on the door as in previous 4runners.
Did you notice the parts that I made VERY OBVIOUS? My personal preference is actually to strive for a 2-seat setup, which most definately cannot be fixed with DSP and MUST start with good speaker placement. HOWEVER, the OP clearly stated he wants it to look original but still correct imaging issues. I gave him advice on how to do such a thing (at least for the driver seat) and I stand behind that advice. Your "advice" goes against what the OP was asking for and therefore it's bad advice.
 

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so run a coax or briax with aimable tweeter. I never said the tweeter had to be visible or mounted on the outside of the door. I said, mount the tweeter closer to the door speaker. read what I said before tearing it apart

I didnt put words in your mouth. you said:
with modern DSP (digital sound processors) you can put speakers in a lot of non-ideal places and electronically compensate
I said:
your preference is to advise him to fix non-ideal speaker placement with DSP

so how have I misquoted you?
 

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GIGO.... there is only so much magic DSP's can do. if you get speaker placement as close to idea as possible, your results will be better all around.
My advise with 3way systems is to have the tweeter as close as possible to the mid, so as not to create staging "ghosts" by splitting the very localize-able 3500-6000 group (depends on your Xover points obviously)
 

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so run a coax or briax with aimable tweeter. I never said the tweeter had to be visible or mounted on the outside of the door. I said, mount the tweeter closer to the door speaker. read what I said before tearing it apart...so how have I misquoted you?
I'll admit when I'm wrong, I missed the "advice to him" part and took you saying it as being always my preference.

I'll still also say you are wrong IF the OP wants to use the 3-way he suggested. His idea with my DSP advice will sound superior. Why put the tweeters down low, behind a factory grill, and attached to a 5" or 6" speaker that will start beaming long before the tweeter takes over when you can: put the midbass in the door for stage width, put the tweeter and dedicated midrange directly beside each other (for better imaging), and have the tweeter and midrange on the dash (which makes getting a high stage easier*) all while keeping the factory appearance he wants?

* Note that a high soundstage can be achieved many ways, but putting the drivers up higher will typically make the task easier.
 

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GIGO.... there is only so much magic DSP's can do. if you get speaker placement as close to idea as possible, your results will be better all around.
My advise with 3way systems is to have the tweeter as close as possible to the mid, so as not to create staging "ghosts" by splitting the very localize-able 3500-6000 group (depends on your Xover points obviously)
I agree with you. And the OP mentioned having the midrange and tweeter right beside each other which is why I didn't mention it. I suggested DSP to help align and level match the midrange/tweeter on the dash with the midbass on the door. DSP can at least do that for one seat and I think that's the best he can get if he is holding to hidden behind factory locations.
 

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In a 2-way setup I would agree not to split the mid/tweet that far... but he is talking 3-way setup. As long as the tweeter is close to the midRANGE then it's fine to keep the midBASS in the door. The midbass will prbly crossover around 1k (just a guess) and everything else will be carried up on the dash.

Main hurdle with aiming tweeters off the windshield is harshness. You will have to dial those tweeters way back.. but I would give it a shot before going 2-way with the tweets down by my ankles.
 

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I guess we are gonna have to disgree on that one. kicks with mids and tweets have been the most realible way to get good imaging and staging for decades and that puts the tweeter very low.

most 6.5" midbass dont beam until 3.5-4khz anyway, so cross them off below that and you will not have to worry about it. add to the fact that running a cross-firing tweeter just off-axis and you will have good imaging.
 

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One more tip to the OP if you don't want to invest in a DSP but you are planning to use an aftermarket amp. Get a 4-channel amp. Run the midbass active and the midrange/tweeter passive. Typically the opposite midbass will be louder because it is more on-axis (passenger side in your case) and the closer midrange and tweeter will be louder because it's closer (driver side in your case). So you can put the DS midbass and PS midrange/tweeter on ch. 1&2 of the amp (set gains to maximum clean ouput). Put the PS midbass and DS midrange/tweeter on ch. 3&4 of the amp (set the gains to match output of ch. 1&2). The gain pot will likely be lower because output is reduced to account for side bias and will roughly help give you a good center image.
 

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I guess we are gonna have to disgree on that one. kicks with mids and tweets have been the most realible way to get good imaging and staging for decades and that puts the tweeter very low.

most 6.5" midbass dont beam until 3.5-4khz anyway, so cross them off below that and you will not have to worry about it. add to the fact that running a cross-firing tweeter just off-axis and you will have good imaging.
It may image well if you are running your seat with extensions into the back seat. I prefer to listen to my stereo in my normal driving position. It seems like any setup I've heard with mids/tweets down in the kicks you need to adjust back in living room mode to get proper staging/depth.
 

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I guess we are gonna have to disgree on that one. kicks with mids and tweets have been the most realible way to get good imaging and staging for decades and that puts the tweeter very low.

most 6.5" midbass dont beam until 3.5-4khz anyway, so cross them off below that and you will not have to worry about it. add to the fact that running a cross-firing tweeter just off-axis and you will have good imaging.
You're right about kicks (and that is what I use for my 2-seat setup with plenty of stage height), but the OP said he wanted FACTORY LOCATIONS and doors ARE NOT kicks.

Most passive tweeter setup cross at 3.5khz and most 6.5" midbass beam well before that point (see quote below). So you are still advising the OP to do something he stated he doesn't want to do...and that still equals bad advice.

Just some reference stuff you might want to "save'};)

Beaming of speakers:

Assuming 30C or 86 degrees F:

12" ~ 1,150Hz
10" ~ 1,380Hz
8" ~ 1,720Hz
7"~ 1,970Hz
6.5" ~ 2,120Hz
5.25" ~ 2,620Hz
4" ~ 3,440Hz
3" ~ 4,950Hz
2" ~ 6,880Hz
1" ~ 13,750Hz
 

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lol i think this is going to devolve into a "equal path length" vs DSP TA thread. ... my advise is still the same regardless. get the best acoustic imaging/staging possible before using DSP's /TA. We can all agree there is more than one way to skin a cat, So arguing which method is better is fruitless. the Best solution for the OP will be the one he thinks sounds best, for what ever reason. I encourage the OP to try several different methods using Velcro and cardboard until he finds a location suitable to his aesthetic needs and acoustic tastes....
 

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I guess we are gonna have to disgree on that one. kicks with mids and tweets have been the most realible way to get good imaging and staging for decades and that puts the tweeter very low
If this is true than why do 90+% of auto manufacturers put speakers in dash and a pillar locations. You dont have to use a kickpanel for great staging. I dont, in fact I use my factory door location for a midbass and a factory dash location for a wideband driver.
 

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This is true. Rule's of thumb only get you so far.. If there was a secret formula for every car I'm sure manufactures and aftermarket alike would adopt it.
 

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You're right about kicks (and that is what I use for my 2-seat setup with plenty of stage height), but the OP said he wanted FACTORY LOCATIONS and doors ARE NOT kicks.

Most passive tweeter setup cross at 3.5khz and most 6.5" midbass beam well before that point (see quote below). So you are still advising the OP to do something he stated he doesn't want to do...and that still equals bad advice.
I was using that as an example, not as advise for what he should do. :rolleyes:


I obviously have no idea what I am talking about, OP, please disregard EVERYTHING I said.
 

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I was using that as an example, not as advise for what he should do. :rolleyes:


I obviously have no idea what I am talking about, OP, please disregard EVERYTHING I said.
What is your problem man? You seem to know what you're talking about (and I haven't argued that once) to get a good sounding setup, but you are also suggesting things that go against what the OP asked for.

Maybe the OP will come back and say he read everything and is going to go with "asthetic" looking alternatives from the factory locations, but at this point that isn't the case. And agruing that putting coax/braxial speakers in the doors is a better option than midrange/tweet on the dash because kickpanel installs have/do work great is NOT accurate, WON'T give the same results (doors vs. kicks), and is STILL bad advice.

EDIT: So instead of just admitting you gave bad advice for what the OP wants (though not necessarily bad in general terms), you act like a child and say:

I obviously have no idea what I am talking about, OP, please disregard EVERYTHING I said.
 

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This is a fun thread:)
To original post.
The only rule that matters is ----- Glass and tweeters hate each other.
Also tweeter output does not travel well if at all thru or around obstructions.
Whatever you have to do to keep in line with those two rules will be all in your favor.

Also as mentioned.
One way around the tweeter vs glass problem is a full range speaker.
Been reading a lot of good things about them.
But is a compromise and not the three way system you are planning.
It would be a two way sytem.
Full range in dash locations - Mid bass in doors.
 
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