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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys, as a (home) audiophile for some decades I also did some personal caraudio installs and would like to change my 2 way with sub in my classic car.

I am interested to use the Satori MW16P-4 for in the door and dont know about the tweeter yet.

Currently I am using Vifa ringradiator Tweeters with a German Alu 5" driver, but it lacks kickbass in 60-100hz. The 12" sub to a 5" driver is too big of a difference. (I cross them at 45hz)

So I want to use the Satori MW16P-4 in the door, with a Satori tweeter or an AMT or Ribbon tweeter. I have Apogee ribbon speakers at home that I enjoy and heard 100's of high end sets to know that I prefer Ribbon and Amt over a softdome (generally, of course softdomes can sound great too) but crossing them low is tricky.
I make my own crossovers and so far prefer them over digitally dsp active filtering although most would disagree.
Passive is a lot harder and time consuming to get very right, but it gives a more "analogue/musical" sound imo.
(But the imaging and fast adjusting of dsp is also a MAJOR benefit... so I dont know yet.

Question, the MW16P has a fs of 28hz. And a qts of 0.27 which is low... Making the door sealed, could I cross it around 40 - 50hz ? (When I cross at 80hz the sub is comming from behind...)

I dont play very loud, I only care for SQ!

Also, the driver has a dip around 70hz on measurements specs...
Has anyone experienced this differently?

I think I go for a 2 way to start with, because I dont have big A pillars in the classic car. Otherwise my wish would be a 3" with Tweeter mounted on dash/ A pillars... So 2 way is easier, and can sound nice too.

Thanks in advance for help and suggestions!

Grtz Don Camillo
 

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You need to work on phase and timing to get upfront bass, you don’t need to cross your drivers at 40-50hz, sorry but that’s just the biggest bunch of mis information I’ve ever read... you will have so many holes in the response by using drivers in the doors if you cross them at 40-50hz, a phase issue at 60-80 for starters, there is nothing audiophile about phase issues in the middle of a response

I read satori and figured you knew what you were talking about, then I read some more and realised you really don’t, sorry but what your saying isn’t audiophile in anyway...

and no a mw16p-4 won’t play to 40-50hz without eqing the hell out of every frequency upto 2.5khz, good luck with that (yes I do use them, I also have a set of mw13p-4 and also sb17mfc-4 for good measure for my Emma sq car, so I’d like to think I know a little bit about the drivers and where they would work
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi thanks for your thoughts.
I wrote audiophile because thats the goal. (I disnt say I knew all about it for in the car...) 😉
For phase; I didnt know about the 80hz in door issues... thats good to realise thanks.
With passive, the only adjustment I have is in or out phase, unfortunately it wont go up front with that, so I crossed around 45 for not hearing too much from behind.
So maybe I do have to look into Dsp.
But from the 20+ yrs of listening to High end shows; I always found the digitally corrected setups too artificial sounding... I want to hear "the wood" from the instruments...
Once u heard that, its a bit harder to be satisfied.

Of course phase issues arent audiophile at all, I agree!...

So going low in crossing with issues... or going active with good imaging and a little less realism in music reproduction... thats the question too......... 😥

I also thought about the ceramic drivers from SB... but think the paper Satori can sound just a bit more real, isnt that the case?
 

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I use the Satori in my 2 way. Love them. But I wouldn't go lower than 80. I'm actually crossed at 125 due to a nasty kick resonance. My sub is right behind me so localization isn't really a problem unless you really pay attention. I couldn't be happier with my setup.

The time to choose between a 2 or a 3 way is now. Going from a 2 way to a 3 way you will spent extra money on drivers that work in a 2 way but are a weaker choice for a 3 way.
 

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Before changing anything, is there a reason you're crossing the sub so low? True, a 5.25" is limited, but with proper tuning it can still work, plus the Satori isn't going to be a major difference. An excellent midrange driver, but still limited to around 100hz.

The key to a good blend is having a way to alter points, slopes, & response. If you don't have such tools, then you're going to be at a disadvantage when trying to mate a 12" to a 5.25" because that match requires more work. Still, you'll need those same tools for even the Satori, so I suggest starting there before swapping anything. You might find that is all that is needed to get things right.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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Buy a *cheap dsp" like the Dayton, make all your crossovers as you like, then translate the result to a passive xover when you found what you liked.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #7
@ nhtunes;
Yeah I can imagine I would like the Satori too.
Indeed now is choosing time, thanks for reminding. I used a 3 way (all Vifa) in my car about 12 yrs ago (with Zapco Studio's and Nakamichi MB100) and i would use other drivers with a 2 way...
I still have the Vifa M18WH-04 which could go really low mounted on huge heavy steel rings I welded on the doors. But I had some phase issues...
like dumdum explained... and xo filtering wasnt as good as this last one.
But for this car I prefer a more simple setup.

@ Badboy; I crossed low because when higher crossed the sound comes from the back, its a large 4-door.
I expect much from the Satori, and I could passive filter 6db with good parts (which I love at homehifi) or 12db which I use at this moment. The limitation below 100hz is a petty indeed... or useless for me?..

So the best solution is using a Dsp then?

@Alain93 Yeah I saw that Dsp, I like the simplicity, dont know how much of the sound it takes away... but making a passive crossover out of settings is very hard, or even impossible. Also complex xo's make often a dull sound, so I prefer it simple...

Maybe I could use a Dsp for just the subwoofer, but dunno of thats possible. I havent read on caraudio forums for a long time.
Then I could get the sub up front and use passive xo's. And also play with the dsp for the 2 way set to see if I like it.
I checked with some caraudio friends about the dsp, and some agreed about passive vs digital xo.

Dont know what to do yet...
 

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100hz limit on a mid is not a deal breaker. Even if it could play low, chances are you'd wind up crossing higher anyway because a lower point on the sub robs you of system midbass performance.

Any time I have tried to cross a sub low, it turned out that i was just trying to compensate for the upper response of the sub not being EQ'd well enough... and that s including above the crossover point.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Badboy I just saw you have 7k+ posts... woww... so, you know your stuff man...

That higher sub crossing I can only do with a dsp so sound goes up front (I dont know the insider terms, also English isnt my first language).
So I am seriously considering using a dsp. Good imaging is also a plus.

But what I remember from my caraudio period about 15yrs ago was I heard a car who had Podzus Görlich 6.5" in a door with a Scan speak Tweeter, WITHOUT a sub!, and it sounded amazing. (Although I am not sure what I would think nowadays) He won some European Emma contests in his class. The 6.5 ran fullrange I believe, or crossed only around 5khz or so. And a small single cap for the tweeter.
It wasnt as deep as a realy great sub, but it was still very impressive. It probably ran to around 35 hz (-3db).
So I was hoping I could do this with the Satori. But it probably cant...
I did it with my Vifa 3way a while without a sub, and the 6.5 also ran pretty deep...

I can also remember a guy with Zapco competition amps who had his sub way up front (nice!).. without a dsp....!
Mine stays behind (in and out phase).

SQ soundwise what difference is there between a Dayton or a JL Dsp? Or which is a good one? (Daytons price is awesome).
 

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Hi thanks for your thoughts.
I wrote audiophile because thats the goal. (I disnt say I knew all about it for in the car...) 😉
For phase; I didnt know about the 80hz in door issues... thats good to realise thanks.
With passive, the only adjustment I have is in or out phase, unfortunately it wont go up front with that, so I crossed around 45 for not hearing too much from behind.
So maybe I do have to look into Dsp.
But from the 20+ yrs of listening to High end shows; I always found the digitally corrected setups too artificial sounding... I want to hear "the wood" from the instruments...
Once u heard that, its a bit harder to be satisfied.

Of course phase issues arent audiophile at all, I agree!...

So going low in crossing with issues... or going active with good imaging and a little less realism in music reproduction... thats the question too......... 😥

I also thought about the ceramic drivers from SB... but think the paper Satori can sound just a bit more real, isnt that the case?
The fact you think digitally corrected sounds artificial tells me your either deaf or swayed by knowing its corrected with DSP in the first place.

Secondly, Driver material choice does not dictate "a bit more real" sound signature. Look at the measurements, not material.
 

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The amount of posts isn't directly related to knowledge. I'm probably just blabbing most of the time. Lol

Seriously though, it's very hard to predict what will happen In your vehicle unless the acoustics have been measured. That said, it's pretty dang hard to make a driver like the Satori dig down into subwoofer region. At low volumes and lots of response correction perhaps, but the compliance is way off from Il what I personally deem ideal in orderto pull such a feat. It's an excellent midrange for 2-way duty, but if I wanted something to dig much deeper like you are talking about, I'd probably look at a much higher Q/lower compliance driver to start with.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
The fact you think digitally corrected sounds artificial tells me your either deaf or swayed by knowing its corrected with DSP in the first place.

Secondly, Driver material choice does not dictate "a bit more real" sound signature. Look at the measurements, not material.
Well maybe both? 😉 Nah neither...
After building loudspeakers for some time (the first 30 yrs ago) and mostly tuned xo's by my ears (there is where you learn most and get good ears) AND hearing around 50 ultra high end systems (100 - 500k$) and hundreds of below that price sets... I can say I have pretty well trained ears, even told by some high end speaker builders.
If you cant hear the difference between cables, caps, coils, resistors... and wrong polarity of home components than dont read further...
But I havent heard a digitally corrected setup (or D-amps) like Lyngdorf roomcorrected setups sounding very natural... Now dont get me wrong; it sounds really very nice and "perfect"....!! but it doesnt make me have goosebumps or get my musical heartrate up....
And I am not alone in this. A good friend of mine (with very well balanced 40k$ system) who has the same taste in sound as me has the same conclusions.
But most people cant hear that difference... so DSP is superhandy to get a "perfect" sound...
But I guess I enjoy a very well balanced simple setup and well tuned passive xo, without perfect imaging, more than a artificial 'perfect' sound... (to my ears)...

But I am open to try, so I may buy the Dayton dsp, or is it better to get Audison or JL?... to find out.

Oh btw, measurements arent everything in drivers... a driver with great frequency response and ts parameters can sound disappointing.
I had drivers of many brands, from cheap Tangband to expensive Accuton.

Yes your -swayed by knowing its dsp-comment, so tricked by our own belief, is indeed very true!! We get tricked by our brain easilly... also our ears adapt or calibrate to the sound a bit after an hour or so. And of course when we are tired, it sounds worse, and with upbeat it sounds better.

But I heard too much to know I can trust my ears in this "digital/passive/analogue" thing. 😊
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The amount of posts isn't directly related to knowledge. I'm probably just blabbing most of the time. Lol

Seriously though, it's very hard to predict what will happen In your vehicle unless the acoustics have been measured. That said, it's pretty dang hard to make a driver like the Satori dig down into subwoofer region. At low volumes and lots of response correction perhaps, but the compliance is way off from Il what I personally deem ideal in orderto pull such a feat. It's an excellent midrange for 2-way duty, but if I wanted something to dig much deeper like you are talking about, I'd probably look at a much higher Q/lower compliance driver to start with.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
Yeah indeed, the Qts is a bit too low to drive it low powerfully...
Although some use low Qts drivers in home Open Baffle designs (where u want above 0.50 Qts) as well, with very good results. But maybe not for the bass, more for the midrange.

So thinking about this more, I want to try the Satori, and get my subwoofer (phase and EQ) corrected with a DSP so its up front, to start with... and maybe also even later for the Satori.

I mean I can use the DSP on my sub amp only right? And have the 2way passive on his 4 channel amp?

I would love to hear your Satori's... but its a bit far from Holland 😉
 

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Well maybe both? 😉 Nah neither...
After building loudspeakers for some time (the first 30 yrs ago) and mostly tuned xo's by my ears (there is where you learn most and get good ears) AND hearing around 50 ultra high end systems (100 - 500k$) and hundreds of below that price sets... I can say I have pretty well trained ears, even told by some high end speaker builders.
If you cant hear the difference between cables, caps, coils, resistors... and wrong polarity of home components than dont read further...
But I havent heard a digitally corrected setup (or D-amps) like Lyngdorf roomcorrected setups sounding very natural... Now dont get me wrong; it sounds really very nice and "perfect"....!! but it doesnt make me have goosebumps or get my musical heartrate up....
And I am not alone in this. A good friend of mine (with very well balanced 40k$ system) who has the same taste in sound as me has the same conclusions.
But most people cant hear that difference... so DSP is superhandy to get a "perfect" sound...
But I guess I enjoy a very well balanced simple setup and well tuned passive xo, without perfect imaging, more than a artificial 'perfect' sound... (to my ears)...

But I am open to try, so I may buy the Dayton dsp, or is it better to get Audison or JL?... to find out.

Oh btw, measurements arent everything in drivers... a driver with great frequency response and ts parameters can sound disappointing.
I had drivers of many brands, from cheap Tangband to expensive Accuton.

Your -swayed by knowing its dsp-comment, so tricked by our own belief, is very true! We get tricked by our brain easilly...
But I heard too much to know I can trust my ears in this. 😊
If there's one thing I've learned traveling around the world for HiFi.

Room treatment and DSP are a must, whether the speakers cost $1000 or $500 thousand.
 

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If there's one thing I've learned traveling around the world for HiFi.

Room treatment and DSP are a must, whether the speakers cost $1000 or $500 thousand.
dsp/eq in a home 2 channel system?
 
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You'd be surprised at what some good EQ work can do to a 2 or 2.1 channel home setup (or even a full 5.1/.1 etc. home theater setup). Even though you can easily sit in the 'sweet spot' in a home setup, that does not mean the frequency response of the speakers are ideal, even after being 'broken in'. I've personally done some parametric EQ work on my 2.1 PC setup (the receiver I am using has built in parametric EQ) and it has taken the entire setup to a whole new level.
 

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Yeah indeed, the Qts is a bit too low to drive it low powerfully...
Although some use low Qts drivers in home Open Baffle designs (where u want above 0.50 Qts) as well, with very good results. But maybe not for the bass, more for the midrange.

So thinking about this more, I want to try the Satori, and get my subwoofer (phase and EQ) corrected with a DSP so its up front, to start with... and maybe also even later for the Satori.

I mean I can use the DSP on my sub amp only right? And have the 2way passive on his 4 channel amp?

I would love to hear your Satori's... but its a bit far from Holland
Unfortunately, I've moved on from the Satori though I still have much respect for them. Probably the cleanest with impressive linearity driver I've used in a 2-way though with that caveat. Still, like I say, 100hz isn't all that bad, especially if there's a bit of rise from 160hz down to the crossover point. That will help plant bass upfront and they surely are capable.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
@ Kpop sucks, Porsche, Jahrah79

Yes thats very true, you definately have to to treat your room. The room is often forgotten or not allowed by the wife, but often ruins your well chosen set. Or when done right lift it up to another level!
Looking at my above view, I did it acoustically, with diffusers and stuff.
More easy would be an EQ... which I still would like to try one day. Probably only for the bass driver. But that means another amp for the tweeters...
Now all sounds nice, exept for some bass problems... 😣😧
 

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Discussion Starter #19
@Badboy

Ah okay thanks, good to know you liked it... but did you regret it a bit, changing? What did you chance it with?
I am still also thinking about a 3 way with the smaller Satori mid in dash, or maybe pods... but with small classic A pillars, I prefer in the dash.
I could use my Vifa 6.5" for kickbass..

I guess I do have to try with a small 3" or 4" to test what I would prefer...
(The higher stage is nice)
 

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Not so much as regret in changing it, I moved on to a 3-way with an 8" as the midbass just trying different things. The advantage in the change was getting more upper bass to appear on the dash, but that also brought on more door rattles. Also now it calls for more amp channels, wiring, etc while before I could get away with 5 channels. Pros & cons to each.

My other vehicle remains a 2-way front setup and probably will stay that way. If the stock door enclosures were suitable for Satori 5" I'd use them. Instead, Wavecor 5.25 mids reside in them and do nicely at the moment.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 
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