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Discussion Starter #21
@ Badboy
8" in the doors... wow... nice!

Okay thanks, I'll see what I will do 2 or 3 way... 馃憤
 

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Buy a *cheap dsp" like the Dayton, make all your crossovers as you like, then translate the result to a passive xover when you found what you liked.

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How do you manage phasing issues in the 408?

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Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
Gentleman, wow thats a nice way to say it.... but I am just a guy... 馃槉

I am gonna look some further into Dsp, and start with the Dayton.
I am curious if a more expensive one sounds better... I guess probably.
I heard the sound of the minidsp wasnt liked by some audiophiles...
 

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How do you manage phasing issues in the 408?

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Phase issues are affected by, of course, time alignment, EQ, and crossover configuration. It also does have a 180掳 phase flip, but I'm guessing you're talking more complex than a flip. Now, whether minor adjustments in the list of things mentioned cause or solve an issue would have to be seen during the tune, but automatically going to -24db Linkwitz Riley electrical filters is NOT a guarantee in avoiding issues. In fact, the acoustic result is more important than the electrical means, but somehow that gets washed when "use all -24db slopes" gets repeated which is often.

So there's concerns in what to do, how to solve them, what can the 408 or any processor do? Well, the truth is, just like any auto repair shop, the more specialized tools available, the more various & complex repairs can be done. However, if all you need is a set of tires, oil change, or brake pads, you don't need a shop that has every tool in the book. So in that light, the 408 should have plenty to solve phase issues within reason to get proper sound. It should have enough bands and other adjustments to optimize a simple setup that's utilizing well behaved drivers and the install has been maximized. It is when you go out of that scope, a more complex DSP might be required.

That said, don't underestimate what little is needed to have a great sounding setup. The 408 is still a powerful tool, cost aside.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
So the phase solutions are 180掳 fip/switch. So thats the same as changing plus/minus wires to the drivers, right?

When change polarity to my sub, both options wont get my sub on the hood.... I thought someone mentioned you get it up front; mainly is to change the phase... so I assume its not 180 or 0掳, but maybe 90掳 to get it done??... Can other Dsp's select it stepless? (Or whats the word, I am a noob at this)... or which dsp can?

Or what steps need to be done to get it up front?
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I was pretty stupid to wait a bit too long to buy some used but almost new Mundorf AMT (the biggest ones, which also was a concern if I could fit them, and I had to check, but meanwhile they got sold.....) Dammit!.... that hurts.... the frequency respons of them were perfect...

But also, the seller said he meanwhile sold some Satori MW16P-4 he used before... and he wasnt that impressed with them...! He expected more of them...
So that suprised me.

I now am going to try how some 4" BMR drivers that would run from 250hz to 20k and pur them in the dash, firing up. Just to see how they sound... I am curious.
 

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So the phase solutions are 180掳 fip/switch. So thats the same as changing plus/minus wires to the drivers, right?

When change polarity to my sub, both options wont get my sub on the hood.... I thought someone mentioned you get it up front; mainly is to change the phase... so I assume its not 180 or 0掳, but maybe 90掳 to get it done??... Can other Dsp's select it stepless? (Or whats the word, I am a noob at this)... or which dsp can?

Or what steps need to be done to get it up front?
The phase flip is rather simple although effective... you can hear the difference and mostly effective when dialing in the crossover.

For finer tuning you're better off getting time alignment, levels, and response right... and not just "paper right", but audibly right. You can not think in simple terms of just turning a dial or sliders to some calculated number and everything is correct, it can take measuring, very slight adjustment, and most of all listening to accomplish what you're trying to fix, but it's definitely doable even with most limited DSP's. It all boils down to tuning skills and willingness to do some seat time.

If I can dial in an 80prs, there's no way I would doubt anything more powerful in DSP.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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Discussion Starter #32
馃憤
Indeed, paper right (including measurements) doesnt mean its audible right... Thats why listening to other high end gear and training your ears is so important! So you can tune it also by ear...
 

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Here's some reading...


Trusting/training your ears can become a hamster wheel too

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Discussion Starter #34
Here's some reading...


Trusting/training your ears can become a hamster wheel too

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Woww thanks man!! Thats indeed a good article 馃憤 Gonna read it tonight, thanks!
 

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Phase issues are affected by, of course, time alignment, EQ, and crossover configuration. It also does have a 180掳 phase flip, but I'm guessing you're talking more complex than a flip. Now, whether minor adjustments in the list of things mentioned cause or solve an issue would have to be seen during the tune, but automatically going to -24db Linkwitz Riley electrical filters is NOT a guarantee in avoiding issues. In fact, the acoustic result is more important than the electrical means, but somehow that gets washed when "use all -24db slopes" gets repeated which is often.

So there's concerns in what to do, how to solve them, what can the 408 or any processor do? Well, the truth is, just like any auto repair shop, the more specialized tools available, the more various & complex repairs can be done. However, if all you need is a set of tires, oil change, or brake pads, you don't need a shop that has every tool in the book. So in that light, the 408 should have plenty to solve phase issues within reason to get proper sound. It should have enough bands and other adjustments to optimize a simple setup that's utilizing well behaved drivers and the install has been maximized. It is when you go out of that scope, a more complex DSP might be required.

That said, don't underestimate what little is needed to have a great sounding setup. The 408 is still a powerful tool, cost aside.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
You hit the nail on the head. I'm pretty much just walking around singing the praises of allpass filters because i can't figure out why no one is talking about phase alignment.

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Discussion Starter #36
Okay, so I removed the dashboard top yesterday to try tweeters firing up to the glass. (Compared to directly under dashTOP, so besides the vents, 30掳 off axis)
The Pro: a) wow nice high soundstage.
b) easy and esthetic install.
The con: a) it doesnt sound as nice as when on axis or 30掳 off axis.
b) not easy to mount and less esthetic.
Then I tried on A pillar, 30掳 off axis.
NICE!!... The best so far.
But, since my A pillars are thin, I need small tweeters!...
I am looking at the Dayton mini 8 AMT or the POD4 (same but for car)... however, the frequency curve is all over the place... and off axis pretty bad, from 10khz.
So this means EQ only.... or some tweeking with passive xo.

I also tried some Ribbon Tweeters I had, and I liked them better than the softdomes. But they are also larger.
So I prefer some small AMTs.
I guess with the Satori MW16P...

Any thoughts?
 

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I'll admit, I didn't try a bunch of tweeters with the Satori. In fact, I think I only played with one while I jumped back and forth with different drivers altogether. I used the KAXBLTW(?) in upper door locations. Even with such placement, stage height was not an issue.

The Satori, though off-axis, was far more audible past what some adamantly and perhaps blindly preach about beaming and crossover limits...1.5-2khz. 3khz wasn't even an issue and while I'm sure I could have resorted to tweeters like you're mentioning that need a higher crossover point, using one that can cross lower even though you're crossing a tad higher sure helps with keeping distortion at bay.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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Discussion Starter #38
I'll admit, I didn't try a bunch of tweeters with the Satori. In fact, I think I only played with one while I jumped back and forth with different drivers altogether. I used the KAXBLTW(?) in upper door locations. Even with such placement, stage height was not an issue.

The Satori, though off-axis, was far more audible past what some adamantly and perhaps blindly preach about beaming and crossover limits...1.5-2khz. 3khz wasn't even an issue and while I'm sure I could have resorted to tweeters like you're mentioning that need a higher crossover point, using one that can cross lower even though you're crossing a tad higher sure helps with keeping distortion at bay.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
Good to know the Satori will do well to 3khz like the frequency off axis indeed shows.

So indeed I want my tweeter more to 3khz than above that. This would mean the Dayton Amt Mini is out.

Buf I saw some other stuff like a magnetostat which can be crossed around 3khz. So I am checking some more.
 
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