DIYMobileAudio.com Car Stereo Forum banner

SQ 2 or 3 way Satori "audiophile" setup question

Tags
satori
4K views 37 replies 10 participants last post by  Don Camillo 
#1 ·
Hi guys, as a (home) audiophile for some decades I also did some personal caraudio installs and would like to change my 2 way with sub in my classic car.

I am interested to use the Satori MW16P-4 for in the door and dont know about the tweeter yet.

Currently I am using Vifa ringradiator Tweeters with a German Alu 5" driver, but it lacks kickbass in 60-100hz. The 12" sub to a 5" driver is too big of a difference. (I cross them at 45hz)

So I want to use the Satori MW16P-4 in the door, with a Satori tweeter or an AMT or Ribbon tweeter. I have Apogee ribbon speakers at home that I enjoy and heard 100's of high end sets to know that I prefer Ribbon and Amt over a softdome (generally, of course softdomes can sound great too) but crossing them low is tricky.
I make my own crossovers and so far prefer them over digitally dsp active filtering although most would disagree.
Passive is a lot harder and time consuming to get very right, but it gives a more "analogue/musical" sound imo.
(But the imaging and fast adjusting of dsp is also a MAJOR benefit... so I dont know yet.

Question, the MW16P has a fs of 28hz. And a qts of 0.27 which is low... Making the door sealed, could I cross it around 40 - 50hz ? (When I cross at 80hz the sub is comming from behind...)

I dont play very loud, I only care for SQ!

Also, the driver has a dip around 70hz on measurements specs...
Has anyone experienced this differently?

I think I go for a 2 way to start with, because I dont have big A pillars in the classic car. Otherwise my wish would be a 3" with Tweeter mounted on dash/ A pillars... So 2 way is easier, and can sound nice too.

Thanks in advance for help and suggestions!

Grtz Don Camillo
 
See less See more
#2 ·
You need to work on phase and timing to get upfront bass, you don’t need to cross your drivers at 40-50hz, sorry but that’s just the biggest bunch of mis information I’ve ever read... you will have so many holes in the response by using drivers in the doors if you cross them at 40-50hz, a phase issue at 60-80 for starters, there is nothing audiophile about phase issues in the middle of a response

I read satori and figured you knew what you were talking about, then I read some more and realised you really don’t, sorry but what your saying isn’t audiophile in anyway...

and no a mw16p-4 won’t play to 40-50hz without eqing the hell out of every frequency upto 2.5khz, good luck with that (yes I do use them, I also have a set of mw13p-4 and also sb17mfc-4 for good measure for my Emma sq car, so I’d like to think I know a little bit about the drivers and where they would work
 
#3 ·
Hi thanks for your thoughts.
I wrote audiophile because thats the goal. (I disnt say I knew all about it for in the car...) 😉
For phase; I didnt know about the 80hz in door issues... thats good to realise thanks.
With passive, the only adjustment I have is in or out phase, unfortunately it wont go up front with that, so I crossed around 45 for not hearing too much from behind.
So maybe I do have to look into Dsp.
But from the 20+ yrs of listening to High end shows; I always found the digitally corrected setups too artificial sounding... I want to hear "the wood" from the instruments...
Once u heard that, its a bit harder to be satisfied.

Of course phase issues arent audiophile at all, I agree!...

So going low in crossing with issues... or going active with good imaging and a little less realism in music reproduction... thats the question too......... 😥

I also thought about the ceramic drivers from SB... but think the paper Satori can sound just a bit more real, isnt that the case?
 
#10 ·
Hi thanks for your thoughts.
I wrote audiophile because thats the goal. (I disnt say I knew all about it for in the car...) 😉
For phase; I didnt know about the 80hz in door issues... thats good to realise thanks.
With passive, the only adjustment I have is in or out phase, unfortunately it wont go up front with that, so I crossed around 45 for not hearing too much from behind.
So maybe I do have to look into Dsp.
But from the 20+ yrs of listening to High end shows; I always found the digitally corrected setups too artificial sounding... I want to hear "the wood" from the instruments...
Once u heard that, its a bit harder to be satisfied.

Of course phase issues arent audiophile at all, I agree!...

So going low in crossing with issues... or going active with good imaging and a little less realism in music reproduction... thats the question too......... 😥

I also thought about the ceramic drivers from SB... but think the paper Satori can sound just a bit more real, isnt that the case?
The fact you think digitally corrected sounds artificial tells me your either deaf or swayed by knowing its corrected with DSP in the first place.

Secondly, Driver material choice does not dictate "a bit more real" sound signature. Look at the measurements, not material.
 
#4 ·
I use the Satori in my 2 way. Love them. But I wouldn't go lower than 80. I'm actually crossed at 125 due to a nasty kick resonance. My sub is right behind me so localization isn't really a problem unless you really pay attention. I couldn't be happier with my setup.

The time to choose between a 2 or a 3 way is now. Going from a 2 way to a 3 way you will spent extra money on drivers that work in a 2 way but are a weaker choice for a 3 way.
 
#5 ·
Before changing anything, is there a reason you're crossing the sub so low? True, a 5.25" is limited, but with proper tuning it can still work, plus the Satori isn't going to be a major difference. An excellent midrange driver, but still limited to around 100hz.

The key to a good blend is having a way to alter points, slopes, & response. If you don't have such tools, then you're going to be at a disadvantage when trying to mate a 12" to a 5.25" because that match requires more work. Still, you'll need those same tools for even the Satori, so I suggest starting there before swapping anything. You might find that is all that is needed to get things right.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 
#7 ·
@ nhtunes;
Yeah I can imagine I would like the Satori too.
Indeed now is choosing time, thanks for reminding. I used a 3 way (all Vifa) in my car about 12 yrs ago (with Zapco Studio's and Nakamichi MB100) and i would use other drivers with a 2 way...
I still have the Vifa M18WH-04 which could go really low mounted on huge heavy steel rings I welded on the doors. But I had some phase issues...
like dumdum explained... and xo filtering wasnt as good as this last one.
But for this car I prefer a more simple setup.

@ Badboy; I crossed low because when higher crossed the sound comes from the back, its a large 4-door.
I expect much from the Satori, and I could passive filter 6db with good parts (which I love at homehifi) or 12db which I use at this moment. The limitation below 100hz is a petty indeed... or useless for me?..

So the best solution is using a Dsp then?

@Alain93 Yeah I saw that Dsp, I like the simplicity, dont know how much of the sound it takes away... but making a passive crossover out of settings is very hard, or even impossible. Also complex xo's make often a dull sound, so I prefer it simple...

Maybe I could use a Dsp for just the subwoofer, but dunno of thats possible. I havent read on caraudio forums for a long time.
Then I could get the sub up front and use passive xo's. And also play with the dsp for the 2 way set to see if I like it.
I checked with some caraudio friends about the dsp, and some agreed about passive vs digital xo.

Dont know what to do yet...
 
#8 ·
100hz limit on a mid is not a deal breaker. Even if it could play low, chances are you'd wind up crossing higher anyway because a lower point on the sub robs you of system midbass performance.

Any time I have tried to cross a sub low, it turned out that i was just trying to compensate for the upper response of the sub not being EQ'd well enough... and that s including above the crossover point.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 
#9 · (Edited)
Badboy I just saw you have 7k+ posts... woww... so, you know your stuff man...

That higher sub crossing I can only do with a dsp so sound goes up front (I dont know the insider terms, also English isnt my first language).
So I am seriously considering using a dsp. Good imaging is also a plus.

But what I remember from my caraudio period about 15yrs ago was I heard a car who had Podzus Görlich 6.5" in a door with a Scan speak Tweeter, WITHOUT a sub!, and it sounded amazing. (Although I am not sure what I would think nowadays) He won some European Emma contests in his class. The 6.5 ran fullrange I believe, or crossed only around 5khz or so. And a small single cap for the tweeter.
It wasnt as deep as a realy great sub, but it was still very impressive. It probably ran to around 35 hz (-3db).
So I was hoping I could do this with the Satori. But it probably cant...
I did it with my Vifa 3way a while without a sub, and the 6.5 also ran pretty deep...

I can also remember a guy with Zapco competition amps who had his sub way up front (nice!).. without a dsp....!
Mine stays behind (in and out phase).

SQ soundwise what difference is there between a Dayton or a JL Dsp? Or which is a good one? (Daytons price is awesome).
 
#11 ·
The amount of posts isn't directly related to knowledge. I'm probably just blabbing most of the time. Lol

Seriously though, it's very hard to predict what will happen In your vehicle unless the acoustics have been measured. That said, it's pretty dang hard to make a driver like the Satori dig down into subwoofer region. At low volumes and lots of response correction perhaps, but the compliance is way off from Il what I personally deem ideal in orderto pull such a feat. It's an excellent midrange for 2-way duty, but if I wanted something to dig much deeper like you are talking about, I'd probably look at a much higher Q/lower compliance driver to start with.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 
#13 ·
The amount of posts isn't directly related to knowledge. I'm probably just blabbing most of the time. Lol

Seriously though, it's very hard to predict what will happen In your vehicle unless the acoustics have been measured. That said, it's pretty dang hard to make a driver like the Satori dig down into subwoofer region. At low volumes and lots of response correction perhaps, but the compliance is way off from Il what I personally deem ideal in orderto pull such a feat. It's an excellent midrange for 2-way duty, but if I wanted something to dig much deeper like you are talking about, I'd probably look at a much higher Q/lower compliance driver to start with.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
Yeah indeed, the Qts is a bit too low to drive it low powerfully...
Although some use low Qts drivers in home Open Baffle designs (where u want above 0.50 Qts) as well, with very good results. But maybe not for the bass, more for the midrange.

So thinking about this more, I want to try the Satori, and get my subwoofer (phase and EQ) corrected with a DSP so its up front, to start with... and maybe also even later for the Satori.

I mean I can use the DSP on my sub amp only right? And have the 2way passive on his 4 channel amp?

I would love to hear your Satori's... but its a bit far from Holland 😉
 
#16 ·
You'd be surprised at what some good EQ work can do to a 2 or 2.1 channel home setup (or even a full 5.1/.1 etc. home theater setup). Even though you can easily sit in the 'sweet spot' in a home setup, that does not mean the frequency response of the speakers are ideal, even after being 'broken in'. I've personally done some parametric EQ work on my 2.1 PC setup (the receiver I am using has built in parametric EQ) and it has taken the entire setup to a whole new level.
 
#18 · (Edited)
@ Kpop sucks, Porsche, Jahrah79

Yes thats very true, you definately have to to treat your room. The room is often forgotten or not allowed by the wife, but often ruins your well chosen set. Or when done right lift it up to another level!
Looking at my above view, I did it acoustically, with diffusers and stuff.
More easy would be an EQ... which I still would like to try one day. Probably only for the bass driver. But that means another amp for the tweeters...
Now all sounds nice, exept for some bass problems... 😣😧
 
#19 ·
@Badboy

Ah okay thanks, good to know you liked it... but did you regret it a bit, changing? What did you chance it with?
I am still also thinking about a 3 way with the smaller Satori mid in dash, or maybe pods... but with small classic A pillars, I prefer in the dash.
I could use my Vifa 6.5" for kickbass..

I guess I do have to try with a small 3" or 4" to test what I would prefer...
(The higher stage is nice)
 
#20 ·
Not so much as regret in changing it, I moved on to a 3-way with an 8" as the midbass just trying different things. The advantage in the change was getting more upper bass to appear on the dash, but that also brought on more door rattles. Also now it calls for more amp channels, wiring, etc while before I could get away with 5 channels. Pros & cons to each.

My other vehicle remains a 2-way front setup and probably will stay that way. If the stock door enclosures were suitable for Satori 5" I'd use them. Instead, Wavecor 5.25 mids reside in them and do nicely at the moment.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 
#29 · (Edited)
So the phase solutions are 180° fip/switch. So thats the same as changing plus/minus wires to the drivers, right?

When change polarity to my sub, both options wont get my sub on the hood.... I thought someone mentioned you get it up front; mainly is to change the phase... so I assume its not 180 or 0°, but maybe 90° to get it done??... Can other Dsp's select it stepless? (Or whats the word, I am a noob at this)... or which dsp can?

Or what steps need to be done to get it up front?
 
#31 ·
The phase flip is rather simple although effective... you can hear the difference and mostly effective when dialing in the crossover.

For finer tuning you're better off getting time alignment, levels, and response right... and not just "paper right", but audibly right. You can not think in simple terms of just turning a dial or sliders to some calculated number and everything is correct, it can take measuring, very slight adjustment, and most of all listening to accomplish what you're trying to fix, but it's definitely doable even with most limited DSP's. It all boils down to tuning skills and willingness to do some seat time.

If I can dial in an 80prs, there's no way I would doubt anything more powerful in DSP.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 
#30 ·
I was pretty stupid to wait a bit too long to buy some used but almost new Mundorf AMT (the biggest ones, which also was a concern if I could fit them, and I had to check, but meanwhile they got sold.....) Dammit!.... that hurts.... the frequency respons of them were perfect...

But also, the seller said he meanwhile sold some Satori MW16P-4 he used before... and he wasnt that impressed with them...! He expected more of them...
So that suprised me.

I now am going to try how some 4" BMR drivers that would run from 250hz to 20k and pur them in the dash, firing up. Just to see how they sound... I am curious.
 
#33 ·
Here's some reading...


Trusting/training your ears can become a hamster wheel too

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
#36 ·
Okay, so I removed the dashboard top yesterday to try tweeters firing up to the glass. (Compared to directly under dashTOP, so besides the vents, 30° off axis)
The Pro: a) wow nice high soundstage.
b) easy and esthetic install.
The con: a) it doesnt sound as nice as when on axis or 30° off axis.
b) not easy to mount and less esthetic.
Then I tried on A pillar, 30° off axis.
NICE!!... The best so far.
But, since my A pillars are thin, I need small tweeters!...
I am looking at the Dayton mini 8 AMT or the POD4 (same but for car)... however, the frequency curve is all over the place... and off axis pretty bad, from 10khz.
So this means EQ only.... or some tweeking with passive xo.

I also tried some Ribbon Tweeters I had, and I liked them better than the softdomes. But they are also larger.
So I prefer some small AMTs.
I guess with the Satori MW16P...

Any thoughts?
 
#37 ·
I'll admit, I didn't try a bunch of tweeters with the Satori. In fact, I think I only played with one while I jumped back and forth with different drivers altogether. I used the KAXBLTW(?) in upper door locations. Even with such placement, stage height was not an issue.

The Satori, though off-axis, was far more audible past what some adamantly and perhaps blindly preach about beaming and crossover limits...1.5-2khz. 3khz wasn't even an issue and while I'm sure I could have resorted to tweeters like you're mentioning that need a higher crossover point, using one that can cross lower even though you're crossing a tad higher sure helps with keeping distortion at bay.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 
#38 ·
I'll admit, I didn't try a bunch of tweeters with the Satori. In fact, I think I only played with one while I jumped back and forth with different drivers altogether. I used the KAXBLTW(?) in upper door locations. Even with such placement, stage height was not an issue.

The Satori, though off-axis, was far more audible past what some adamantly and perhaps blindly preach about beaming and crossover limits...1.5-2khz. 3khz wasn't even an issue and while I'm sure I could have resorted to tweeters like you're mentioning that need a higher crossover point, using one that can cross lower even though you're crossing a tad higher sure helps with keeping distortion at bay.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
Good to know the Satori will do well to 3khz like the frequency off axis indeed shows.

So indeed I want my tweeter more to 3khz than above that. This would mean the Dayton Amt Mini is out.

Buf I saw some other stuff like a magnetostat which can be crossed around 3khz. So I am checking some more.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top