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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hey I am at the point I am thinking about jumping on the 3 way wagon. I currently have a bit one and enough amp channels to go 3 way if I install the other one I have laying around. I am using the Hertz 165xl set and I am happy with the sound I am getting out of it. However, If I spent some coin on some Morel picco's or the Hat L1proR2's would that totally change the sound stage and transparency compared to those XL tweets? Larry at Eletro said those XL tweets are the best tweets for the money Hertz makes (not that Hertz has the best tweeters either) me think there isn't much to gain by adding a supper low FS tweeter. I also checked out the Scans D3004's which are very intriguing with a super low FS of 700. I am relocate my tweets from up on the pillars in pods firing somewhat across the dash to the doors just behind the sail panels because of mirror controls. and see if that can help things out. I will not bash anyone's opinion let me hear it! :)

I know there is a thread that somewhat touches on this 2 way or 3 way, but I'm looking at the difference between going to a high-end tweet versus keeping the tweet I have and putting in a 3" midrange in the pillar thus for fabricating and headache :)

I need to go on and also say the reason for wanting los FS tweets in because the XL's are located in the doors and are probably 100 degrees off axis on the driver side which even with EQ you have a little instrument wandering especially with acoustic guitars. That's why I was thinking going 3 way active. Oh I do run a 2 way active system with T/A and the whole shabang. Being able to Xover a nice tweeter around 1.8K @24DB from 2.75K @ 24 would probably make a difference no?
 

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If you have the bit1 dialed in perfectly for the 2 way and you're looking at going to the next level, then sure look at a 3way. If however you feel like you're lacking for something and therefore you want to go 3ways, work some more on dialing in the bit1, play with the placement etc. Hope that makes sense.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
If you have the bit1 dialed in perfectly for the 2 way and you're looking at going to the next level, then sure look at a 3way. If however you feel like you're lacking for something and therefore you want to go 3ways, work some more on dialing in the bit1, play with the placement etc. Hope that makes sense.
Yeah it does for sure. I guess what I'm wondering is if going to a very high end hf driver will keep me occupied that I have better than I'm used to or is it not going to give me much bang for the buck. From what I understand those hsk. Xls are supposed to have great off axis response in the mid/bass
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Is the installation of the mid/bass optimised? Or behind factory grilles?
They are without a doubt behind those factory grills. I was threatening to cut them and make my own which wouldnt be very difficult. I know I'm probably loosing 70percent between 800 and 3k lol. So if I went 3 way do u think I could leave the grills alone???
 

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I recently swapped my LPG's for the Scan 3004's and the difference was considerable. With the xover point above 2k your mids are beaming, and your soundstage is more than likely being pulled down. I would swap the tweeter and go from there. I've heard plenty of 2 ways that sound as good or better than 3 ways, so I would keep it simple. Just my $.02.
 

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if you opt to change tweets, better change the mids as well. in 2 way, your life depends on your mids. i would do the same thing if id go 3 way as well. same drivers atleast on from tweets to mids for better coherence and timbre matching.
 

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Tuning a 3 way front stage is far more difficult than a 2 way. I don't think even with the low fs you will be able to cross as low as you want, I would think 2.5kHz would be it.

I would say try the 2 way with the Scanspeak Illuminator D3004 and hope it works out for the best.
 

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3-way setup are more towards on letting your midbass to be crossed lower to ~500-1000Hz and your tweeter to be crossed higher to 6300-10000Hz... The midrange(or fullrange) can be crossed in between so that it can be concentrated on vocals and you no need to use EQ too much...
Tuning will be killing you if you were to go 3-way.. Just the placement of the 3 pairs already good enough to make your head cracks...
For Scan's tweeters, no doubt it can go very low, but then you may not able to listen to certain frequencies on that range.... The size of the tweeter are the main limitations...
 

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going 3 ways is better...was in 2 ways b4....but after going 3 ways i prefer it more.....as for tuning....u can always learn and ask...its kind of interesting journey...
 

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I need to go on and also say the reason for wanting los FS tweets in because the XL's are located in the doors and are probably 100 degrees off axis on the driver side which even with EQ you have a little instrument wandering especially with acoustic guitars. That's why I was thinking going 3 way active. Oh I do run a 2 way active system with T/A and the whole shabang. Being able to Xover a nice tweeter around 1.8K @24DB from 2.75K @ 24 would probably make a difference no?
I have heard many times that if such low crossover point is used, then the tweeter and mid should be placed next to each other. If they're placed far apart from each other, then using high crossover points rather than low should result in more manageable imaging.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I have heard many times that if such low crossover point is used, then the tweeter and mid should be placed next to each other. If they're placed far apart from each other, then using high crossover points rather than low should result in more manageable imaging.
Hey thanks for all of the input!!! Without sniping or blowing off some comments and sounding like a dick, let me give you my perception as what I have right now.

So the Mid/woofer is rated to go up to 6K When I bought the system Hertz was crossing it over at 2.5K from what I understand. The Tweets are about 14 inches away from the mids which I understand with Phase and T/A adjustments this can be ok.


When it comes to beaming (this may be happening) but I think this cone is supposed to really help with beaming until higher FR. I can tell you that my sound stage is high..like right in front of me. So I plan on moving the tweeters about 3 inches further in more closer to the sail panels and point them across from each other. I'm also going to try a higher Xover point, because I'm pretty sure that when I did an RTA measurement a while ago I found the mids to easily be able to reproduce up to 3.5K with the mic in the same spot that my ears are. The factory grills are on the Mid/woofer section and I think last time I moved X-over higher it felt lacking, but I obviously did not RTA it or re-eq which was a major mistake on my part for not doing that first. Keep'em coming. I like the input. I really don't want to go 3 way, but it may just come to that. I guess I really don't have to do ANYTHING LOL!! But then that just wouldn't be living would it?

Check out the link here for specs on the woofer.

http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/Doc/Hertz_HiEnergy_HV165XL.pdf
 

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If you are willing to go to the trouble of setting up a different tweeter or adding a mid (which one would work with these, the hl70?) why not spend that energy in making shure you get maximum benefit of the current woofers? Making shure no obstructions are in front of them. Plus 100 degrees off axis could be improved somewhat ;). I had some rings made to angle my woofers in a 2 way configuration. My next step is going to include a different tweeter though. But not because it's needed. Just out of curiosity.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
If you are willing to go to the trouble of setting up a different tweeter or adding a mid (which one would work with these, the hl70?) why not spend that energy in making shure you get maximum benefit of the current woofers? Making shure no obstructions are in front of them. Plus 100 degrees off axis could be improved somewhat ;). I had some rings made to angle my woofers in a 2 way configuration. My next step is going to include a different tweeter though. But not because it's needed. Just out of curiosity.
I don't have a lot of options when It comes to improving the woofers. Doors are sealed, matted, woofers are sealed to the inside of the grill with foam. Foam 1.5 eggshell foam lined behind the woofer. Even If I cut the doors up and made my own grill it would be very difficult to angle them up at me without them sticking out. This is a daily driver for me so I'm not willing to go to that extreme. Since it's easy to do pillars and I Already have for my tweeters, I know what I'm doing with fabricating and it's simple enough to do for me. I have like .5 inch behind the magnet with the windows rolled down and with the spacer to get it away from the window about .25" from the back of the grill. So you see my dilemma :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I think it would be easier to just throw some mids up there on axis. I'm not afraid of tuning. It's just getting cold out!!!! :worried:

***NINJA EDIT***

Yes I was thinking about the HV70's I guess they would match... :laugh: Otherwise It would be nice to get the ML700's or any true 3" driver. I want to stay as small as possible. I'm going to try and raise my Xover point a bit higher and see what that does for me. I'm not dissatisfied with what I have just bored.. I'm going to move my tweeters closer to the sail panel to avoid some early reflections. I stuffed 2 hats (for your head) up in the corner of the windshield and it made a HUUUGGEEE difference. So I think I'm getting some space loading effects that make the stage sound like it stops at the A-pillars. I think this boils down to trying to get better imaging and smoother highs. If you haven't heard the Hertz 165XL's I guess you wouldn't understand that they DO sound good. I would say when you run them active they sound about as good at the old MLK165's
 

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If they sound like the MLK's I think I have a pretty good idea, I'm running the ML1600's.
Here's my old layout:


and I changed that to this:

to improve the synergy between woofer and tweeter.

Yes, they are sticking out :D and yes, this IS my daily driver (lol). Removing the bagage tray's (can't think of what they are called in English but I guess you know what I mean) was allready a great improvement in the 500- 800 Hz range. Angling them helped too but was a more subtle difference.

[edit]
I still need to make something new for the underside door but that will have to wait. The reason I read your thread is because I had thought about 3way as well. For different reasons though. I have the tweeter/woofer actively crossed with the tweeter at 4 Khz. I tried lower settings but never liked the sound of the lower trebble that way. 3 way is kinda hard for me, not much space and I'd have to get a different HU.
I never got that instrument wandering though. Did you try left/right EQ by ear using test tones?
My image stays focussed and even with the tweeters that low I have the stage well above the dash. Might be due to less early reflections, who knows...
I still feel I'm missing something around 3K so I'm trying some Vifa XT25 next and see if I like those crossed a bit lower, something like 2.2 - 2.5 Khz.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
If they sound like the MLK's I think I have a pretty good idea, I'm running the ML1600's.
Here's my old layout:


and I changed that to this:

to improve the synergy between woofer and tweeter.

Yes, they are sticking out :D and yes, this IS my daily driver (lol). Removing the bagage tray's (can't think of what they are called in English but I guess you know what I mean) was allready a great improvement in the 500- 800 Hz range. Angling them helped too but was a more subtle difference.
HAHAHA VERY NICE!!! Don't think I want to go that far :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I remember seeing your 3D modeling for making those pods I think! From the Patrick Bateman post about sphere's. I can't say they sound like the Mille MLK's the MLK are a different animal. They are not as smooth. BTW how is the imaging with the tweeter down there. I was thinking about doing the same at one point.
 

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HAHAHA VERY NICE!!! Don't think I want to go that far :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I remember seeing your 3D modeling for making those pods I think! From the Patrick Bateman post about sphere's. I can't say they sound like the Mille MLK's the MLK are a different animal. They are not as smooth. BTW how is the imaging with the tweeter down there. I was thinking about doing the same at one point.
Imaging is really well actually. Very 3D and you can't pinpoint the origin of the sound. The speakers dissapear, most that hear it are searching for speakers on the dash, even behind the rear view mirror :). On extreme left or right sound mixes there is some slight rainbow effect due to them being low.

You're right about those models in Patrick's thread. Here's the next one:
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Imaging is really well actually. Very 3D and you can't pinpoint the origin of the sound. The speakers dissapear, most that hear it are searching for speakers on the dash, even behind the rear view mirror :). On extreme left or right sound mixes there is some slight rainbow effect due to them being low.

You're right about those models in Patrick's thread. Here's the next one:
Jealous... Well I think it's came down to moving them closer to the sail panel away from the window in nice wood pods....I already have them in wood pods now Thanks to PB lol and that did help, but I'm getting anal at my old age of 26. :laugh:

How hard is it to model those?
 

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It's not that hard to model I'd say. But I've been using CAD programs since 1991 ;).
This definitely was a bit harder to draw:

I usually spend a few nights throwing around ideas to come up with a good guess, but printing costs a bit more than the $ 5,00 from Patrick's thread (lol).

Nothing wrong with wooden pods though, I tried that too but didn't have the tools to get them the way I wanted. I broke a few before I tried this.
No harm in trying the pods at the sails, can't you try it without permanent mounting them there?

You never answered my ninja edit:
Did you try EQ using test tones for left / right by ear?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
It's not that hard to model I'd say. But I've been using CAD programs since 1991 ;).
This definitely was a bit harder to draw:

I usually spend a few nights throwing around ideas to come up with a good guess, but printing costs a bit more than the $ 5,00 from Patrick's thread (lol).

Nothing wrong with wooden pods though, I tried that too but didn't have the tools to get them the way I wanted. I broke a few before I tried this.
No harm in trying the pods at the sails, can't you try it without permanent mounting them there?

You never answered my ninja edit:
Did you try EQ using test tones for left / right by ear?
Yeah I've done just about all of it I guess. I think I will play around with moving the Tweet around and see what happens. My sister has a G6 and besides the fact the factory speakers tonaly sound terrible the imaging sounds fantastic with them in the sail panels. In my saturn Aura the auto mirror mover is built into one of them and I don't care to move it. The G6 and Saturn Aura have almost identical dimensions inside the cabin.
 
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