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Discussion Starter #41
OP: When you post measurements, you need to fix the scaling first off.

In the plots you posted change the scaling to:

SPL; 70-125dB would be more suitable
Distortion: 25-125dB
Waterfall: 0-4ms / 70-125dB

Second, you can't measure a driver inside the car (I assume you did that). The driver must be mounted on a flat baffle outside the car. Then you must gate the impulse response to make the measurement free from reflections from roof/floor/walls. Harmonic distortion plots must be made with a fixed input voltage, or an acoustic SPL @ x meter. I normally measure at 90dB/1m equivalent, if you measure nearfield (which you should) then SPL should be ~108dB at 12,5cm (inverse square law). Plot 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th harmonic, it's usually enough and makes the graph more readable. Waterfalls should be posted using CSD mode in 1/12 smoothing, 4ms range and ~0,1-0,2ms risetime, measure it reflection free in nearfield.

In RoomEQ you can gate the IR, from the IR Windows tab.

I'm not trying to be an asshole here but the measurements are useless unless you go through these steps to provide accurate and repeatable results. I also find aRTA to be better suited for speaker measurements ;)
Hi Hanatsu -

You are not being any where close to beeing something negative - not at all!

I even stated my own that I would like the opinion of people who know what they are doing unlike my self.

But as well note that I stated that by no means I am testing the drivers as a bench mark test nor a klipel test, not even by far

I've stated clearly that I am measuring the car response and not really the speakers but am reviewing "real life" results in conjunction to the ES-02 and how they sound (forgive me for the bold letters) IN MY CAR.

So I am sorry if I had you mistaken thinking I've tried to measure the ES02 only - the review is about them mainly but it is based on the current system and car and this is why I've stated all the data about my car (even the tire type) etc. etc.


Rishi - from Audible Physics

I've stated that it is for the best of my knowledge and thank you for correcting me - but just as a question - there really is a connection between hustler and audible right? or is that wrong as well?


Black Rain

The MIC I use is a UMIK-1 by MiniDSP - you can buy it for 75USD + shipment from their website at Welcome to the world of miniDSP | MiniDSP

REW5 is free of charge but you need to register to a home audio forum as it can only by downloaded from there -google it and you will find it on the first run.

The thing is that I'm not sure I've used the correct callibration when I've done the swipe test and as well the PC sound card is CRAP! but it is enough for me to get an impression and at least know what I am doing.

The RTA ability is a real life changer in tearms of tuning my system.

One more thing - in order to do the sweep test you need to have the PC at which the REW running as your source - I am able to do that as I have a DSP in my car with several source entrances.

As for the TB they are very nice but I wanted a car audio product and simply since a long time wanted to try out CDT drivers - I don't think that a 2inch driver can be counted at any sort of way for SPL when it is a paper cone wide bander, there is a miles away difference between them to drivers such as the M6+ which is built like a SPL driver just by looking at it.

They are indeed lacking a bit of clarity but it makes them "warm" to the ear and this is exactly what I like about them.
 

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Rishi - from Audible Physics

I've stated that it is for the best of my knowledge and thank you for correcting me - but just as a question - there really is a connection between hustler and audible right? or is that wrong as well?
Fountek, Hustler and Audible Physics are connected ,as we are part of the same group.But each company has a different theory on design and operation.So it all depends on who wants what.:)
 

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Ok so for a driver to either play lower or louder it will need to move more, it will need more excursion. So if it runs out of xmax at 20watts at 250hz then giving it more power will make it play outside of it's "comfort zone" meaning it won't sound as good and will be stressed and will most likely be bottoming out as it runs out of "movement"..it would be pushed past its mechanical limits.

I am saying that it plays 250hz to 500hz too quietly compared to the rest of it's bandwith and that you can't EQ it\give more power at that level to compensate and fix it because it will
-not sound as good
-brake it

There is no reason to run such a small driver that low basically. It's like trying to play a 6.5inch down to 30hz.
Ok, so you say that playing 250-500hz on it, your modeling says that the tones are at -10dB on them. Which essentially is too low for anyone to adjust with a processor. But why raise the xover of it to 800, why not just raise it to 550? Thats only moving 1 octave into the midbass instead of 2 octaves by bumping it up to 800. And now wouldn't the 150w run them and stay more efficient?
 

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Thank you Eddie for the review on these drivers. I'm glad you found the 'right sound' - the sound that appeals to you (from mounting them above the dash to the sound based on your tune coming from these drivers).

I have heard fantastic kick installs, but there are a lot of factors in play to make them as good as they were. As you mentioned, you could potentially mount the Hybrid 3 and tweeter in the pillar and be blown away.....but then you would have a 3 and tweeter in your pillar......and you may enjoy the aesthetic of the CDT 2" much better where you have mounted it.....car audio......factoring in the multiple variables to achieve the desired affect.....enjoyment of the music. It sounds like you are enjoying this set ;)

I have always been wary of posting graphs in my 'reviews' :) I don't have the necessary equipment or know-how to do it correctly, but when I explain that and provide just my impressions, folks politely thank me for 'another' subjective review :) So kudos for giving it a try - thanks to the guys in this thread for providing very useful and helpful feedback that we all can learn from.

Juan....I missed your truck at the last meet - I won't miss it at this meet ;) We will be having our simple tuning tutorial during the meet, so the folks that are there can help with some of these questions / realities of speaker performance in person - might be easier to discuss in person and see these things in real time.
 

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Thanks Jason. I look forward to our GTG and the tuning tutorial. With Erin's teachings and the ability of having the right test equipment available, I will be able to post a more comprehensive and more accurate subjective review on them. Also, I look forward to hearing everyone elses thoughts and views on this driver.

Being that there aren't many of these being used and they haven't gotten as much traction in popularity, it will be helpful to get as many people at the GTG to sample them out and critique them and their performance. Knowing that car audio has a pretty good baseline for being a "Word Of Mouth" industry. The more people that are aware and have demoed them, maybe the better they will be if all works out. And by no means am I try to sell CDT products, just believe they make pretty good drivers.
 

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Ok, so you say that playing 250-500hz on it, your modeling says that the tones are at -10dB on them. Which essentially is too low for anyone to adjust with a processor. But why raise the xover of it to 800, why not just raise it to 550? Thats only moving 1 octave into the midbass instead of 2 octaves by bumping it up to 800. And now wouldn't the 150w run them and stay more efficient?
You got it partially right for 250hz ...also factor in the fact that it just can't phisically play loud that low.

Same thing at 550hz, the cone needs to move to much to keep up with the rest, it can't...and you are stressing out the driver and maxing it's capability on the low end..and this affects the entire range above it, when 500ish hz is distorting because it's playing past it's xmax then the other frequencies playing at the same time also suffer. There is no reason to do it. It seems comfortable playing starting at 800hz but might be more comfortable playing higher still...like 1000 or 1500.
 

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I don't recall the exact CDT set I last purchased, I do recall they were 600$ for a 3 way set (ES tweeter, 4'' extended mid range, and 6.5 ES-o6+) and were in my vehicle for 2 months (normally I run drivers for at least 8months -1year before trying something new).

I try not to bash but give my honest impressions.
Based on my experience with CDT; I feel that they are SPL drivers. They do well at high volumes.

The draw back is that they lack clarity (nearly across the board) and can sound somewhat dull. The plus side is at higher volumes they aren't harsh, but that is the trade off.

They should be marketed for SPL, and in that respect they should do very well.
I am not alone in that thinking.

I would hate to have someone drop 600$ for CDT components for a SQ setup and be disappointed. No experience with Audible physics but have heard good things.
I'm not agree with its findings.

Long ago I owned a cdt audio kit:
Qes Subwoofer 10 "
midwoofer es06igold
media ES03
Drt 26 Silk Tweeter

Active configuration, a pioneer and p99 genesis III series amplifiers.

I can say they are great speakers with a fantastic crisp midrange and precise

A terrible midbass, and in general a lot of cleaning in the middle. To my opinion definitely a great kit for sq.

I would like you to know that your kit conditions proved to be so unhappy.

Thank you very much.
 

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I am a little confused in your posting. I can't tell whether you are telling how good they sound or how disappointed you are with their performance. Can you elaborate more on you comment, please.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Thank you Eddie for the review on these drivers. I'm glad you found the 'right sound' - the sound that appeals to you (from mounting them above the dash to the sound based on your tune coming from these drivers).

I have heard fantastic kick installs, but there are a lot of factors in play to make them as good as they were. As you mentioned, you could potentially mount the Hybrid 3 and tweeter in the pillar and be blown away.....but then you would have a 3 and tweeter in your pillar......and you may enjoy the aesthetic of the CDT 2" much better where you have mounted it.....car audio......factoring in the multiple variables to achieve the desired affect.....enjoyment of the music. It sounds like you are enjoying this set ;)

I have always been wary of posting graphs in my 'reviews' :) I don't have the necessary equipment or know-how to do it correctly, but when I explain that and provide just my impressions, folks politely thank me for 'another' subjective review :) So kudos for giving it a try - thanks to the guys in this thread for providing very useful and helpful feedback that we all can learn from.

Juan....I missed your truck at the last meet - I won't miss it at this meet ;) We will be having our simple tuning tutorial during the meet, so the folks that are there can help with some of these questions / realities of speaker performance in person - might be easier to discuss in person and see these things in real time.
Thank you!

I can say that after utilizing HAT speakers for the past 6 years or so they are amazing technical speakers - they perform in a unique manner.

But I was missing something about them I did not miss in the Morel's speakers for example or to give you a much better picture of it - the speakers you are using right now - the Audison Thesis orchestra

The CDTs ES-02 have this ability that I am speaking of and it is to simply be on the "emotional" side of sound!

I don't know why that is but when ever I hear a good warm recording on a morel or thesis or scan speak speakers It speaks better to my heart than to my brain.

They are not as detailed as other brands such as HAT or Focal, they are not as powerful as other brands I've heard but they have a sound I simply melt from when they play.

Any one with a good experience would understand that - without talking about watts and THD and so on and so on - it is all about FUN - > and they deliver!
 

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Thread revival ALERT.

Just adding my .02 here. I love my CDT ES-02! I'll link to my own thread as well to save posting double info

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/system-design-help-me-choose-equipment-my-car/169655-change-plans-2-dedicated-wideband-dash.html

Using them as a widebander mated to my Imagine 6.5" and a single 12" sub, all 3 stages match well and with level matching I am impressed they keep up nicely when I go to loud but clean listening levels.

Mounted in my dash, fully active from 400hz HP/24db slope - I am very happy. Took a few tuning sessions to dial in but nothing crazy. They were VERY hot without a tune session. Now they are smooth and detailed.

I do agree that the power ratings are a bit excessive. Even at 400hz I had to dial back the levels quite a bit, my 360.3 DSP set them way too loud for my normal head unit volume. My PDX-V9 amp is capable of well over 100w to each of these drivers, but I bet they are taking half of that or less to get the output I need. I bet a clean and tuned 30w would do quite well with these drivers.

SPL drivers? Not to me. I say SQL.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Hey Rapture,

Well this is something to think of - a few points actually.

The fact that they CAN play down to 150hz does not mean they do that well and as well they need an enclosure of about 0.3cf in order to do so.

Most people are saying that they excell as a midrange starting at 500hz until 4Khz or so.

The diamater of this element is very small and in most cases a 6.5 inch would perform much better up to 800hz than the ES02.

Take as well in mind more things such as:

1. up to 800hz directivity is not an issue and you can easily make your 6.5 midbass sound as if they are playing up on the dash height instead of the floor level.

They will "connect" or interact seamlessley with the CDT ES02

2. Most 6.5 inch drivers would steal not be beaming up to 2khz (thanks Andy).

So why put so much stress on the CDTs form the first place if the Imagine would do it better?

I noticed in my case that they do not sound well below 900hz but that is also much to do with the tiny enclosure they are located in, I believe that in a more roomy space they could as well sound well at 500-600 hz but really up to 700-800hz I really do not see a reason why not to let it come from the midbasses in the doors.
 

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I totally understand those points. I did try mine crossed higher, all the way from 400 to 1000, and I really do prefer them at 400, the vocals are more "present". Depending on power input and listening levels I can see the need to go higher. I certainly don't think 150hz out of a 2" driver is feasible. Mine also have a fair amount of space, really IB since the 2" pvc caps would not fit in the location I have them in without metal cutting (not for me in the dash haha). I DO NOT like distortion, and can easily tell when they are over driven, plus I observed them in action and the excursion is proper and not hurting.

I am very impressed with them and certainly do not regret my purchase.




Hey Rapture,

Well this is something to think of - a few points actually.

The fact that they CAN play down to 150hz does not mean they do that well and as well they need an enclosure of about 0.3cf in order to do so.

Most people are saying that they excell as a midrange starting at 500hz until 4Khz or so.

The diamater of this element is very small and in most cases a 6.5 inch would perform much better up to 800hz than the ES02.

Take as well in mind more things such as:

1. up to 800hz directivity is not an issue and you can easily make your 6.5 midbass sound as if they are playing up on the dash height instead of the floor level.

They will "connect" or interact seamlessley with the CDT ES02

2. Most 6.5 inch drivers would steal not be beaming up to 2khz (thanks Andy).

So why put so much stress on the CDTs form the first place if the Imagine would do it better?

I noticed in my case that they do not sound well below 900hz but that is also much to do with the tiny enclosure they are located in, I believe that in a more roomy space they could as well sound well at 500-600 hz but really up to 700-800hz I really do not see a reason why not to let it come from the midbasses in the doors.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
I want to try and get my ES02s all the way down to 500hz sometime but in the current enclosures they are in - they do not have enough volume of air space to go any lower than 900hz

After several tests I got to a final Xover point btween them to the L6SE's in the doors to be as follows:

L6SE is cut from 90hz till 1200hz at 6db slope
ES02 is cut from 1200hz till 20Khz at 12db slope

So the CDTs are still playing at some noticeable level at 600hz and the sound has a good volume (not is in meaning of power but in the way it fills the sound stage) to it - a lot of presence

The way I tune the speakers is first I find the best electrical polarity they sound at and then I fine tune using TC measurements - the end result is a solid sound stage which has a fixed height above the dashboard level.

The depth is good but the width needs some improving and I plan on adding HAT L1 (the 8ohm version) in the doors mirror covers.
 

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eddieg - I moved my xover to 600hz today...and it solved ALOT of issues. And to be frank, I cannot tell a difference in stage height, but I know the vocals cleaned up tremendously. I was driving them too hard, and I really like the volume level I listen to so turning them down to stay at 400 is not an option.

My settings are at:

sub 24db slope, @85hz
midbass 24db slope, bandpass from 85-600
extended mid 24db slope, 600 and up

All are on Linkwitz alignments.
 

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eddieg - I moved my xover to 600hz today...and it solved ALOT of issues. And to be frank, I cannot tell a difference in stage height, but I know the vocals cleaned up tremendously. I was driving them too hard, and I really like the volume level I listen to so turning them down to stay at 400 is not an option.

My settings are at:

sub 24db slope, @85hz
midbass 24db slope, bandpass from 85-600
extended mid 24db slope, 600 and up

All are on Linkwitz alignments.
Very cool to read that through some feedback between you all, you have been able to make some improvements.

I got the chance to hear these in Juan's vehicle at the NC Spring Meet - great drivers!
 

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I would recommend bringing it up higher still into what I could call "safe zone". I have said before 800hz should pretty much be it's limits.

I really doubt you would hear much of a difference in stage height and such.
 

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What issues did it fix?
I was having a perceived issue of harsh S, F, and T sounds...which I tracked to the cd I was listening to because it wasn't as bad on known good quality recordings.

But also, my focus was a little poor and I was getting some "pull" on certain vocal sounds to one side or the other, or the focus would get fuzzy. Basically I was driving them too hard and the distortion was pinpointing the driver.

After moving the xover up, everything cleared/tightened up. Major improvement.
 

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Discussion Starter #59 (Edited)
eddieg - I moved my xover to 600hz today...and it solved ALOT of issues. And to be frank, I cannot tell a difference in stage height, but I know the vocals cleaned up tremendously. I was driving them too hard, and I really like the volume level I listen to so turning them down to stay at 400 is not an option.

My settings are at:

sub 24db slope, @85hz
midbass 24db slope, bandpass from 85-600
extended mid 24db slope, 600 and up

All are on Linkwitz alignments.

Try the following things:

ES02's at 1200hz either slope 6 or 12 (try slope 6 first) and the midbass at 600 or 900 or 1200hz at slope 6

Let me know which one out of these setups sounded best for you and how much were you able to cranck up the volume.

Thanks,

Eddie

By the way "rapture" I've submitted a reply on your thread - let me know the results when you can
 

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Is it only me who thinks these speakers are identical to Tang Band W2-852SH?


That is, without a doubt, a TangBand W2.

So you're paying $40 for the drivers, $30 for the box, $90 for the dealer's markup, and $20 for the flanges

 
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