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A wall is a bandaid. Not to say that it won't help by impeding traffic and funneling some of it to smaller areas where enforcement can be more concentrated. But it cannot be built across the entire border. It's impossible to do so. There will always be areas to go around and the determined will find them, either around, over, under or through. A wall does not de-incentivize. The incentive still remains ... catch and release. Get across and you are in, just the way it is now.

The only way to truly address illegal immigration is with real deterrence and de-incentivizing and that only comes from changing the laws. Asylum claims only considered through ports of entry, period. Anyone who crosses between the ports of entry get ID'd and then sent right back where they came from. No catch and release, no ankle bracelet and a prayer that they show up for a court date months or years down the road. Just a meal, some water and a return trip back home. If they return, they get locked up. We are a sovereign nation and we have every right to secure our borders and decide who comes in and who doesn't.

Real problem is that there is no real will in D.C. to change anything. Both sides of the isle want the cheap labor and the lobby is strong. And on top of that, the pols on the left love accumulating future voters while the pols on the right are too stupid to see that their lust for appeasing the cheap labor lobby is ultimately going to keep them out of power. Virtually ever politician that "we" elect is a self serving and/or agenda driven P.O.S. Some simply more so than others.

I won't even start on what I really think about Trump and his declaration of a national emergency. No, it's not the Constitutional crisis that it's being made out to be by the left and some on the right. That ship sailed when Congress, in their infinite wisdom, started legislating away those authorities to the President decades ago. Suffice it to say that I hate seeing the continued overreach and abuses of power that occur at all levels of government. This is yet another one that's going to set another precedent for more (and more egregious) overreach and abuse in the future.
 

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When we secured towns in Iraq... The first thing we did was build a birm wall. It made it easier to identify anybody trying to get into the town and forcing them to use check points. Much less man power, resources, and security patrols. Things still happened but we had so many more resources to throw at those one off issues.

Morale was better for everybody involved and it was cheaper in the long run. Insurgents was one problem but it helped commerce, law and order, and trade. It gave authority and power bank to tribes, mayors, etc. Black markets mostly disappeared. Kidnappings plummeted.

Walls aren't intended to be 100% effective. It just deters the people who are fickle and funnels them. It also provides a tool to persuade trade and commerce.

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When we secured towns in Iraq... The first thing we did was build a birm wall. It made it easier to identify anybody trying to get into the town and forcing them to use check points. Much less man power, resources, and security patrols. Things still happened but we had so many more resources to throw at those one off issues.

Morale was better for everybody involved and it was cheaper in the long run. Insurgents was one problem but it helped commerce, law and order, and trade. It gave authority and power bank to tribes, mayors, etc. Black markets mostly disappeared. Kidnappings plummeted.

Walls aren't intended to be 100% effective. It just deters the people who are fickle and funnels them. It also provides a tool to persuade trade and commerce.

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^^
This right here!! You mention a birm wall. Where were you exactly? I had a birm wall with barbed wire around my compound in Iraq. No one entered my compound except through the entry control point. Properly erected walls are a serious detterent. Could someone have breached our perimeter security...sure, but they didn't try. A lot of people on here have no experience with walls so they don't know their effectiveness. Besides, it's 6 billion out of a 4 trillion yearly budget.
 

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Both...

I go everywhere just doing construction stuff. The biggest benefit is moving the back drop against the sky. So one person can watch a larger area effectively. When anything breaks the back drop against the sky... It stands out like a sore thumb

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I kinda agree with you but at the same time there is no humanity in any of this, there is no humanity in our country at all that I see given the homeless population, yes we definitely need to take care of our own people first and we should, but we also should do our best at helping others as well, how to go about getting that done?I have no idea where to begin but it definitely needs to be addressed and it seems the higher ups(politicians)in this country have seemed to forgotten this
I hadn't planned to dip into this conversation, but I will, to add this;

I once worked with a guy who just couldn't get sober.
He'd been fired from dozens of jobs, spent multiple stints in jail, living on the streets or at the rescue mission (when he was sober enough to not get thrown out).
He constantly complained about not getting enough help from people, or second chances.
He simply couldn't accept the fact that he was the master of his own destiny.
Every time someone felt compassion for him and offered him a job, place to stay, a car to use, money, he would immediately make poor decisions that would lead him right back to the same place.
About a year and a half ago, Police discovered his body in an alley, with the needle still in his arm.
Sad ending, but not a surprise to anyone who knew him.

There is a significant percentage of the homeless population of this country, that is in that position for a reason.
You can only give people so much help, before realizing that they don't want to help themselves.
 

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It seems to me that arguments against the utility of a wall amount to nothing more than perfectionist fallacy.
I agree with this in large part. But the fact remains that "they" come because they know that if they get across the border, they have a good chance of staying. That's the fault of our laws that incentivize illegal immigration. A wall keeps most of them out where the wall is actually present and funnels them to open areas. Higher concentration of resources at those open areas where the wall isn't possible helps keep more of them out. But they are still going to get across and once across ... they're in.
Until the laws are changed, it won't stop. But I agree, build the wall because as I posted earlier, the pols are never going to change the laws.

Couple of points ... the example of the berms in Fallujah aren't quite on point. The berms were built for a different reason and the consequence for breaching those berms was potentially far more severe than that of breaching the wall on our southern border. The fence/"wall" in Israel may be a better example although the consequences of breaching that barrier are also potentially more severe than breaching our southern border. It's also a full length barrier. No necessarily large open areas due to terrain or eminent domain. Regardless, it's been quite effective.
 

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I agree with this in large part. But the fact remains that "they" come because they know that if they get across the border, they have a good chance of staying. That's the fault of our laws that incentivize illegal immigration. A wall keeps most of them out where the wall is actually present and funnels them to open areas. Higher concentration of resources at those open areas where the wall isn't possible helps keep more of them out. But they are still going to get across and once across ... they're in.
Until the laws are changed, it won't stop. But I agree, build the wall because as I posted earlier, the pols are never going to change the laws.

Couple of points ... the example of the berms in Fallujah aren't quite on point. The berms were built for a different reason and the consequence for breaching those berms was potentially far more severe than that of breaching the wall on our southern border. The fence/"wall" in Israel may be a better example although the consequences of breaching that barrier are also potentially more severe than breaching our southern border. It's also a full length barrier. No necessarily large open areas due to terrain or eminent domain. Regardless, it's been quite effective.
^I agree 100%^



From another thread:
It's really very simple: Stop incentivizing illegal immigration.


But that's not going to happen anytime soon, as that wouldn't serve the status quo (i.e. downward pressure on wages, low-wage subsidies via free stuff/entitlement programs, more and more voters increasingly dependent on The State, etc., etc., etc....).
 

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I agree with this in large part. But the fact remains that "they" come because they know that if they get across the border, they have a good chance of staying. That's the fault of our laws that incentivize illegal immigration. A wall keeps most of them out where the wall is actually present and funnels them to open areas. Higher concentration of resources at those open areas where the wall isn't possible helps keep more of them out. But they are still going to get across and once across ... they're in.

Until the laws are changed, it won't stop. But I agree, build the wall because as I posted earlier, the pols are never going to change the laws.



Couple of points ... the example of the berms in Fallujah aren't quite on point. The berms were built for a different reason and the consequence for breaching those berms was potentially far more severe than that of breaching the wall on our southern border. The fence/"wall" in Israel may be a better example although the consequences of breaching that barrier are also potentially more severe than breaching our southern border. It's also a full length barrier. No necessarily large open areas due to terrain or eminent domain. Regardless, it's been quite effective.
The only downside is that nobody realizes how that went down. Although a military operation... Lots of items were being smuggled.

i.e. We give them a water purification system so they had clean water... Every bottle of water made sold. We give them food and rations... Smuggled and sold. Black markets everywhere from the aid that was provided. All those clothing and school supply donations for kids?... Likely sold or bartered.

The birms used in Iraq were as much about controlling commerce as they were helping us identify people trying to stay under the radar. Those check points also allowed us to identify items that could be used for home made bombs.

After larger engagements were over the walls were very much about creating healthy environments.

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The only downside is that nobody realizes how that went down. Although a military operation... Lots of items were being smuggled.

i.e. We give them a water purification system so they had clean water... Every bottle of water made sold. We give them food and rations... Smuggled and sold. Black markets everywhere from the aid that was provided. All those clothing and school supply donations for kids?... Likely sold or bartered.

The birms used in Iraq were as much about controlling commerce as they were helping us identify people trying to stay under the radar. Those check points also allowed us to identify items that could be used for home made bombs.

After larger engagements were over the walls were very much about creating healthy environments.

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Your point on the berms is understood. My intent wasn't to dismiss their effectiveness nor the effectiveness of a barrier on our southern border. Only to point out that the situations are different in many ways.
BTW, I thank you for your service.
 

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Sorry if I seem hard headed about it. Just making sure others understand a wall is a tool... Not the answer.

I'm torn in the whole thing myself. I think 5.7 billion is nothing much considering the massive budget. I don't mind the money going to American business and workers.

But as has been stated, the laws need to change so illegal immigration doesn't carry the same benefits as lawful immigration. Maybe that's the trick...?

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Sorry if I seem hard headed about it. Just making sure others understand a wall is a tool... Not the answer.

I'm torn in the whole thing myself. I think 5.7 billion is nothing much considering the massive budget. I don't mind the money going to American business and workers.

But as has been stated, the laws need to change so illegal immigration doesn't carry the same benefits as lawful immigration. Maybe that's the trick...?

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I think it is essential.

Across the board, we need to stop incentivizing negative outcomes.

We the People, and the Republic we must reclaim

There is a corruption at the heart of American politics, caused by the dependence of Congressional candidates on funding from the tiniest percentage of citizens. That's the argument at the core of this blistering talk by legal scholar Lawrence Lessig ... (who) shows how the funding process weakens the Republic in the most fundamental way, and issues a rallying bipartisan cry that will resonate with many in the U.S. and beyond.
 
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