[fahrfrompuken]

Currently running HAT L6SE mids and heard a system that is owned by the local HAT dealer running no tweeters. He was using L8SEs and L6SEs both in the doors, and a pair of L3SEs running on axis in the a-pillars.

I currently run Morel Supremo Piccolos in my dash, and am thinking of going without tweeters. The question is would I even miss them?

 

[Oliver]

it's your hearing ?

Strangely enough, I could hear everything, although my headphones started screwing up between 10kHz and 14kHz.

Hearing Test 2 - YouTube

:guitarist:

 

[The A Train]

If you arent going to run tweeters, what would their replacements be?

 

[jtaudioacc]

are you interested in adding an L3SE no matter what and going 3 way in the front, or are you just thinking about switching the morels for L3's?

I'd think you can keep what you have now, get the bit one, and a bad ass tune, and you'd be pretty happy.

but if you ask strictly about using an L3SE or even the L3V2 without a tweeter, I'd tell you it's more than possible. listening is really what it comes down to though, and sounds like you've already done that.

but again, a really good tune is most important.

so finally, get that bit one and a tune, then decide from there. that's my final answer. lol

 

[fahrfrompuken]

Yeah, I was thinking about just running a a pair of L3SE mids with no tweeters. I need to hear his car again. Oh, and a Bit One is in the future in Jan or Feb.

 

[Oliver]

What is the range of your hearing?

Would you miss the top end sizzle?

quote from Duckymcse - JT, again thanks for allowing us to use your place for the meet. Man, your new upgrade on your audio sound incredible. L8SE on the kicks, L3SE on stock location firing up the windshield and I believe L1 Pro on the sail panel firing on access. The richness of the vocal, high notes and midbass sound cranked up on high volume sound amazing.

something to consider ^^^^^^

 

[DiMora]

There are a couple of arguments for not using a tweeter. One is that you eliminate time alignment, phasing, and crossover issues pertaining to the relationship between the mid-range and the tweeter. Secondly, it makes for a more simple system, either eliminating a passive crossover or eliminating an active and a pair of amp channels.

That method was "standard" for years in cars as manufacturers tried to save money - speakers used "whizzer" cones.

There are some great "do it all" drivers out there...Fostex is one such brand that gets a lot of recognition for using that method of design.

To my ears, as neat as it is, it never sounds as good as a well-designed system with a tweeter added.

That is because it is a compromise - a mid-range simply cannot replicate highs as well as a tweeter can - and that is what this is all about - accurate sound replication.

In the end, however, it is your car - so if you are happy with a single driver for mids and highs, that is all that matters.

I would recommend that if you do go in that direction, consider something like this that is purpose-built as a full-range driver that will play the highs for you.

Fostex FE166En 6.5" full range: Madisound Speaker Store

8" if you are going totally custom:

Fostex FE206En 8" Full Range: Madisound Speaker Store

Another 6.5 - different design, same concept (this is what I would do if doing a full-range driver):

Fostex FE168EZ 6.5" Full Range Sigma Series: Madisound Speaker Store

Oh...and there is precedence in home audio circles for how great these things can sound:

Google Cain & Cain:

 

[BigRed]

What is the range of your hearing?

Would you miss the top end sizzle?

quote from Duckymcse - JT, again thanks for allowing us to use your place for the meet. Man, your new upgrade on your audio sound incredible. L8SE on the kicks, L3SE on stock location firing up the windshield and I believe L1 Pro on the sail panel firing on access. The richness of the vocal, high notes and midbass sound cranked up on high volume sound amazing.

something to consider ^^^^^^

I've listened to the above system with and without tweeters, and honestly the only thing the tweeters did was add a little width, but created other problems for his stage. Last saturday, I am not sure if he had the tweeters on or off. Were you there Oliver? Maybe you could tell us?

To the OP, go back and listen to the car that had you considering going tweeterless. Only you can decide if something is missing.

When I first did my truck with no tweeters, I had the L3SE AND tweeters in the pillars but the tweeters were not on. I had a guy get in the car that is VERY against having no tweeters. I played the system and about 10 tracks. He commented how great the high end was and that "those tweeters" really make a difference. It was'nt till weeks later that I told him the tweeters are not even on. He was dumbfounded.

 

[chefhow]

When I first did my truck with no tweeters, I had the L3SE AND tweeters in the pillars but the tweeters were not on. I had a guy get in the car that is VERY against having no tweeters. I played the system and about 10 tracks. He commented how great the high end was and that "those tweeters" really make a difference. It was'nt till weeks later that I told him the tweeters are not even on. He was dumbfounded.

Dont you love it when you can fool people into believing that something that isnt there is

 

[fahrfrompuken]

That is all good info. I will take that hearing test soon to see where I'm at.

 

[Lorin]

I have been listening with and without tweeters for the last few weeks and I am strongly leaning toward having tweeters with my widebanders. Does it suffer without them. Nope. Does it sound better with them? To me, yes. Noticeably.

 

[Andy Wehmeyer]

I have been listening with and without tweeters for the last few weeks and I am strongly leaning toward having tweeters with my widebanders. Does it suffer without them. Nope. Does it sound better with them? To me, yes. Noticeably.

Full range drivers are designed mostly for cost reduced systems--like computer speakers--where the addition of a tweeter costs too much. It's a low-end solution for a low end product. "Full range" drivers have no place in a high-quality audio system unless there's some real engineering that provides some dispersion control for high frequencies in some ultra-tweaky product. Even then, the validity of the design should be called into question and at least verified.

 

[asota]

Chef's car is the perfect example of a tweeterless system that really works. The dash location works great with the wide bander's and it sounds very good.

 

[Andy Wehmeyer]

Sure, but would it sound BETTER with tweeters?

If I put a bunch of montreal steak seasoning on a banana, I could probably convince someone that it's an approximation of a steak--"Wow, that tastes surprisingly like a steak, sort of. Especially considering that it isn't really a steak. OK, I agree. It's a good steak-tasting banana." My question is, "Why choose a banana when a steak is just as easy to get?"

Hmmm...because a banana costs less than a steak and having no tweeters costs less than having tweeters.

 

[Andy Wehmeyer]

.

I repeat the question, "Would it sound better with tweeters?"

 

[BigRed]

Sure, but would it sound BETTER with tweeters?

If I put a bunch of montreal steak seasoning on a banana, I could probably convince someone that it's an approximation of a steak--"Wow, that tastes surprisingly like a steak, sort of. Especially considering that it isn't really a steak. OK, I agree. It's a good steak-tasting banana." My question is, "Why choose a banana when a steak is just as easy to get?"

Hmmm...because a banana costs less than a steak and having no tweeters costs less than having tweeters.

Love your analogies Andy Here are my thoughts: maybe the steak doesn't taste good when its broken into two separate parts.

There are trade-offs and compromises to both system choices. The cons to having tweeters based on MY EXPERIENCE is phase problems and coherence of the stage. If you don't care about that, and you can fit a tweeter in your system design, then by all means the answer is easy.

would it sound better with tweeters? Depends on what your definition of better is

 

[Andy Wehmeyer]

We don't even hear phase very well at high frequencies unless it causes frequency or level problems.

However, you might be right about the steak. I prefer to stuff a whole 22oz. Porterhouse down my gullet in one shot. Cutting it into smaller, more manageable bites completely screws things up.

 

[asota]

I have never heard his system when he had tweeters in it. The wide-bander's firing off the windshield just seem to work, would tweeters firing off the windshield sound as good or better probable not or he would be using them. I myself would always use tweeters but I still think the old MB Quarts are the most detailed ever made so what do I know.

 

[BigRed]

We don't even hear phase very well at high frequencies unless it causes frequency or level problems.

However, you might be right about the steak. I prefer to stuff a whole 22oz. Porterhouse down my gullet in one shot. Cutting it into smaller, more manageable bites completely screws things up.

I don't know what would be better, stuffing a 22oz porterhouse in your mouth in one shot, OR 2 smaller pieces on 2 seperate forks arriving perfectly in your grill at the same time and making it seem like one piece. lol

 

[Lorin]

Oddly enough, Andy's posts and pm early on in my "quest" for widebanders is a strong reason why I went ahead WITH a tweeter in my system, although I originally just used the stock tweeters in my car and ran them off the ms-8 from 8000 up. The real "aha" moment came when I removed them (to add a larger format tweeter). It has been a few weeks now being "tweeter-less" and I am very much looking forward to getting them back in place and retuning the ms-8. Not saying you should have them, but as Andy said to me in a PM, " I have never seen a system not benefit by HAVING a tweeter installed." Not saying that your system doesnt sound good, nor am I saying that it isnt awesome when you can convince someone that it has a tweeter when it doesnt. For me, my truth came in a "true" A\B listening test, easily facilitated with the MS-8. Very easy to retune with and without the tweeters and notice the difference in minutes.