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Yeah you're missing the fact that if motor force meant nothing, they wouldn't bother publishing it along with the other TS parameters for the subwoofer. You act like motor force cancels out and means nothing. lol of course it does that's why they publish the number for it in the first place.



Also here's another "coincidence" for all you 8 ohm-doubters: Why do people say high-impedance headphones give you more tight, controlled and accurate bass then? Clearly they don't know anything either.



Clearly there's no need for all those really expensive, high-impedance headphones, because there's no way there's a difference in audio quality at all. And all those people that say bass reproduction on those types of headphones is tighter, more accurate....nah, those guys are all snowflakes too.
Here, I'll quote my previous post.


Motor force is "B" (magnetic flux in the gap) times "l" (length of windings in the gap), wiring it either in series or parallel WILL NOT change either of those parameters. However, only using 1 coil will change "l" (halves it). I think what you may have experienced is amplifier distortion when wired in parallel.
For what it's worth, we would normally compare motor force with "Bl/Re", which gives consistent and less confusing results.
YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE EFFECTIVE MOTOR FORCE OF A SPEAKER, unless you use only one of the two voice coils. THE MOTOR FORCE IS DETERMINED BY THE PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE MOTOR (the magnetic flux in the gap and the number of windings in the gap), YOU CANNOT CHANGE THEM WITHOUT REBUILDING THE SPEAKER TO DIFFERENT SPECS. Yes, I meant to scream.
As much as I hate to encourage you, your argument does hold water IF you're talking about a SINGLE voice coil speaker in either 2 or 8 ohm versions, the 8 ohm speaker will have more windings in the gap to achieve 8 ohms, therefore it will have more motor force, all else being equal.
YOUR ARGUMENT DOES NOT WORK WHEN DRIVING BOTH COILS OF A DVC SPEAKER IN EITHER SERIES OR PARALLEL. WHEN BOTH COILS ARE USED, MOTOR FORCE REMAINS THE SAME.
 

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On a side note, it's really hard to "yell" at someone on the internet when you're at work and getting interrupted every 4 letters.
 

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Funny thing, since that setup didn't impress me, I switched to the Infinity Perfect 10.1 subs (just two) and an Infinity 611a to power them. It had a clip light, do I used that to set the gain. Night and day difference in clarity and impact from the old setup, but I also had the gain much closer to correctly set with the new setup, which makes it by no means a fair comparison in hind sight.

I picked up the 3rd perfect 10.1 later when I switched cars and wanted to move down to just one sub. I couldn't justify pulling one of the two and using it, then if I wanted to l run two later, one would have been played so much more than the other and I felt it would have changed how the two behave. Never ran all (3) together, just have (3).
 

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Would be great if you were to measure the response of the sub wired both ways, then (hopefully) a final conclusion to this ordeal will come about and a little more civility as well.

All this banter was comical at first, but now, I'm ready to see it conclude.

I hope you are able to get readings to help prove your point, I'm just not so sure it'll happen. I once wired up a pair of DVC drivers wrong and got an 8 ohm final instead of my target 2 ohm. Took a couple weeks to figure it out. They never really got all that loud and pretty much just complimented the music at Max sub level, so I finally looked into it given they should have been broken in by that point. Rewired for a 2 ohm final and they came to life and created bass you could finally feel, not just hear.

...
Are you suggesting that the OP disconnect one of the wires at the amp and measure the impedance of the speaker with a DMM?
 

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Are you suggesting that the OP disconnect one of the wires at the amp and measure the impedance of the speaker with a DMM?
No. He's saying get another sub that's mechanically the same except 8ohm from the jump.

But what he's really saying is the science simply doesn't back up his explanation of his experience.
 

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Rockworthy I did exactly what you are saying I wired my first skar vd-10 at 8 ohms and ran it off a jbl gtx and it made bass and was smooth and deep
and after 2 weeks I wired her up 2 ohms and liked it so much I bought another set
I decided I did not need to "break in" my sub so the 2nd set was 2ohm and its way more bass. Why did I need a 2nd? why not?
POWER is KING! no way you will convince anyone here of anything else w/o solid proof
now I did try a k6-10 and Love it! its in the wifes cruze and it is a beast
it does hit hard but my truck does not have the room for a pair of those w/o work
I have read all this and you have stated your case my vote 2 OHM
same as the rest I am not a sheep I do not follow just because
I do what I like and keep quiet
 

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No, I wasn't telling the OP to run on one coil, the OP said he ran the sub wired at 2 ohm and 8 ohm, liking the performance when wired at 8 ohm better. I said it'd be nice to get measurements of the sub performing wired at 2 ohm and 8 ohm for comparison. I only mentioned that I once ran a setup at 8 ohms and then at 2 ohm when realizing/correcting the mistake and that "I" can't say I recall a better performance when it was wired to 8 ohm. In fact, in my case, it was because of poor performance that I checked the impedance to make sure it was at 2 ohm, as it sounded so week. "I" do not recall any chest pounding bass when it was wired for 8 ohm final. 2 ohm final produced output I could feel though, but I ASSuME it was because of increased power.

At the same time, my setup was two DVC 2 ihm subs, not one DVC 4 ohm. Not a fair comparison.
 

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No, I wasn't telling the OP to run on one coil, the OP said he ran the sub wired at 2 ohm and 8 ohm, liking the performance when wired at 8 ohm better. I said it'd be nice to get measurements of the sub performing wired at 2 ohm and 8 ohm for comparison. I only mentioned that I once ran a setup at 8 ohms and then at 2 ohm when realizing/correcting the mistake and that "I" can't say I recall a better performance when it was wired to 8 ohm. In fact, in my case, it was because of poor performance that I checked the impedance to make sure it was at 2 ohm, as it sounded so week. "I" do not recall any chest pounding bass when it was wired for 8 ohm final. 2 ohm final produced output I could feel though, but I ASSuME it was because of increased power.

At the same time, my setup was two DVC 2 ihm subs, not one DVC 4 ohm. Not a fair comparison.
Ok I was intentionally leading the witness. :cool:

I said nothing about running one cool - so I am not sure where that jump came from?

I am suggesting that since you miswired a set to 8ohms rather 2ohms, that maybe the OP confirm with a meter that they are in fact close to 8 ohms, and he does not have this all backwards... which seems like a distinct possibility.
 

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Ok I was intentionally leading the witness. :cool:

I said nothing about running one cool - so I am not sure where that jump came from?

I am suggesting that since you miswired a set to 8ohms rather 2ohms, that maybe the OP confirm with a meter that they are in fact close to 8 ohms, and he does not have this all backwards... which seems like a distinct possibility.

You are positing that he may have indeed been running 8 ohm prior, and then switched to 2 ohms thinking it was 8?



Well, that sure would be funny.


BTW I don't think anybody is debating that the amplifier isn't more dynamically damped at higher impedances. That's definitely proven true. Running at 1 ohm vs say 4 ohm (a reasonable range) shows that all else being equal, the amplifier's damping factor is much better.


The issue here is that in a car, and with all that extra headroom worth of power, the lower ohm spec would still probably be better.


See, you're claiming that wiring in parallel affects the sound negatively, compared with wiring in serial. And that's where I'm calling you out asking for proof. Because I know there is none you can produce. I'm not an elitist, I'm far from it. But I am a realist that knows the basic math here. Let's say I am running 2 DVC subs, 4 ohms each. Let's assume I run them series/parallel, that is 8 ohms per sub, and parallel again back to 4 ohms to the amp. And then let's say I have another set of identical subs, and I wire them parallel/series. By your subjective reasoning, the 1st pair should sound better. But I 100% guarantee it won't sound any different. Disagree?


BTW, the name calling started with you, champ. Plus, calling someone chicken is grounds for a fight.
 

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You are positing that he may have indeed been running 8 ohm prior, and then switched to 2 ohms thinking it was 8? ....
I wondered early on if this might be the case. Of course, if it were, we'd never hear it from one of such apparent intellectual immaturity and dishonesty.
 

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I wondered early on if this might be the case. Of course, if it were, we'd never hear it from one of such apparent intellectual immaturity and dishonesty.
Everyone makes mistakes. It would blow the theory out of the water, but manning up would be the best thing to do.
I am not sure it is fair to through the judgements out? ...He has been posting all this in good faith so far.


Basically anything that gets us on a path towards something is progress, so measuring impedence seems like a start towards that.

We know it is not a whack, whether it is flipped phase, impedence, etc... needs work without a personal assassination.
 

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Everyone makes mistakes. It would blow the theory out of the water, but manning up would be the best thing to do.
I am not sure it is fair to through the judgements out? ...He has been posting all this in good faith so far.


Basically anything that gets us on a path towards something is progress, so measuring impedence seems like a start towards that.
Good faith? :laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 

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Here, I'll quote my previous post.




YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE EFFECTIVE MOTOR FORCE OF A SPEAKER, unless you use only one of the two voice coils. THE MOTOR FORCE IS DETERMINED BY THE PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE MOTOR (the magnetic flux in the gap and the number of windings in the gap), YOU CANNOT CHANGE THEM WITHOUT REBUILDING THE SPEAKER TO DIFFERENT SPECS. Yes, I meant to scream.
As much as I hate to encourage you, your argument does hold water IF you're talking about a SINGLE voice coil speaker in either 2 or 8 ohm versions, the 8 ohm speaker will have more windings in the gap to achieve 8 ohms, therefore it will have more motor force, all else being equal.
YOUR ARGUMENT DOES NOT WORK WHEN DRIVING BOTH COILS OF A DVC SPEAKER IN EITHER SERIES OR PARALLEL. WHEN BOTH COILS ARE USED, MOTOR FORCE REMAINS THE SAME.

The thing is, you think motor force is BL, so since B is constant, and the physical orientation of the windings have not changed, you therefore think that motor force (which you mistaken for BL) cannot ever change if both coils of a DVC are used. The units of BL can be expressed as: Newtons/Ampere, or Tesla*meter. ◄ those units of BL (together) cannot be a force! If you can't see why, then that is why you can't see why.

Can't change BL unless you rebuild the speaker? Here's the thing. L is not always the physical characteristic of the windings in the coil, which is what you believe. It is when it's a single voice coil, but L can be completely different from an electrical perspective when you have different wirings of a DVC. That is the key idea that you have not yet realized.

BL can be altered with alternate wiring schemes of a DVC. With a single VC on the former, then you're right: BL cannot be changed. But with a DVC there is a fundamental difference that allows BL to actually change. Why? The length of wire L actually changes from the amplifier's perspective! That's what matters! It doesn't matter about the physical contruction of the dual voice coil. Of course the physical orientation won't change, but that is not what BL is concerning! The motor force factor (thats what BL really is, BTW) leads to more force, because motor force is BLi. Motor force is BLi. One more time. Motor force is BLi. Because N/A * A = N. (from the units of BL mentioned previously). You cannot evaluate motor force from just BL, you have to take i into account, which means you have to take Re into account. BL as Tesla*meter can change (the meter part) because the length of windings as the amplifier sees it actually change when you change from series to parallel wiring! So BL actually changes. And because Re changes in the process, once evaluated and I mean really evaluated mathematically, BLi, thus actual motor force does change.
 

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The thing is, you think motor force is BL, so since B is constant, and the physical orientation of the windings have not changed, you therefore think that motor force (which you mistaken for BL) cannot ever change if both coils of a DVC are used. The units of BL can be expressed as: Newtons/Ampere, or Tesla*meter. ◄ those units of BL (together) cannot be a force! If you can't see why, then that is why you can't see why.



Can't change BL unless you rebuild the speaker? Here's the thing. L is not always the physical characteristic of the windings in the coil, which is what you believe. It is when it's a single voice coil, but L can be completely different from an electrical perspective when you have different wirings of a DVC. That is the key idea that you have not yet realized.



BL can be altered with alternate wiring schemes of a DVC. With a single VC on the former, then you're right: BL cannot be changed. But with a DVC there is a fundamental difference that allows BL to actually change. Why? The length of wire L actually changes from the amplifier's perspective! That's what matters! It doesn't matter about the physical contruction of the dual voice coil. Of course the physical orientation won't change, but that is not what BL is concerning! The motor force factor (thats what BL really is, BTW) leads to more force, because motor force is BLi. Motor force is BLi. One more time. Motor force is BLi. Because N/A * A = N. (from the units of BL mentioned previously). You cannot evaluate motor force from just BL, you have to take i into account, which means you have to take Re into account. BL as Tesla*meter can change (the meter part) because the length of windings as the amplifier sees it actually change when you change from series to parallel wiring! So BL actually changes. And because Re changes in the process, once evaluated and I mean really evaluated mathematically, BLi, thus actual motor force does change.
What's your IQ Oscar?
 

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The thing is, you think motor force is BL, so since B is constant, and the physical orientation of the windings have not changed, you therefore think that motor force (which you mistaken for BL) cannot ever change if both coils of a DVC are used. The units of BL can be expressed as: Newtons/Ampere, or Tesla*meter. ◄ those units of BL (together) cannot be a force! If you can't see why, then that is why you can't see why.



Can't change BL unless you rebuild the speaker? Here's the thing. L is not always the physical characteristic of the windings in the coil, which is what you believe. It is when it's a single voice coil, but L can be completely different from an electrical perspective when you have different wirings of a DVC. That is the key idea that you have not yet realized.



BL can be altered with alternate wiring schemes of a DVC. With a single VC on the former, then you're right: BL cannot be changed. But with a DVC there is a fundamental difference that allows BL to actually change. Why? The length of wire L actually changes from the amplifier's perspective! That's what matters! It doesn't matter about the physical contruction of the dual voice coil. Of course the physical orientation won't change, but that is not what BL is concerning! The motor force factor (thats what BL really is, BTW) leads to more force, because motor force is BLi. Motor force is BLi. One more time. Motor force is BLi. Because N/A * A = N. (from the units of BL mentioned previously). You cannot evaluate motor force from just BL, you have to take i into account, which means you have to take Re into account. BL as Tesla*meter can change (the meter part) because the length of windings as the amplifier sees it actually change when you change from series to parallel wiring! So BL actually changes. And because Re changes in the process, once evaluated and I mean really evaluated mathematically, BLi, thus actual motor force does change.
Here's a quote:
"Put simply, the motor strength (BL) is a measure of how strong the magnetic field within the voice coil gap (B) multiplied by the length of voice coil that is active in the magnetic field (L)."
No change in the ACTIVE wire length + no change in the magnetic field of the gap = no change in motor force. Suck it, Oscar.
 
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