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Discussion Starter #161
You can probably cross it higher, but you still have to be careful of localization. Even clean bass will become localizable after abou 120hz.

Rockyworthy, yes I've used IDQ's. I ran a pair in a sealed box, then the same pair IB. Later I added a third IDQ 10 IB. After that setup I ran a pair of SBP 15's IB. Now I'm running my first ported box with Audio Frog's base model sub the G10D4.
Yeah it will be fun to try crossing over the SBP higher than I'm used to and seeing how it sounds, just because it's designed to do so. We'll see if it's annoying to be able to hear the localization of the sub at the higher frequencies too. That's cool you're so familiar with the IB SBP 15's. I had to go look up who Audio Frog is, they look amazing too. They have that same type of ultra-low inductance as Acoustic Elegance subwoofers, probably because they're using a similar type of copper "faraday sleeve" around the voice coil. I'll bet they sound amazing. Those Audio Frogs look legit, and also I noticed they're all on clearance right now on their website! Dude they're selling the 10" and 12" subs for $75 right now!
 

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Yeah it will be fun to try crossing over the SBP higher than I'm used to and seeing how it sounds, just because it's designed to do so. We'll see if it's annoying to be able to hear the localization of the sub at the higher frequencies too. That's cool you're so familiar with the IB SBP 15's. I had to go look up who Audio Frog is, they look amazing too. They have that same type of ultra-low inductance as Acoustic Elegance subwoofers, probably because they're using a similar type of copper "faraday sleeve" around the voice coil. I'll bet they sound amazing. Those Audio Frogs look legit, and also I noticed they're all on clearance right now on their website! Dude they're selling the 10" and 12" subs for $75 right now!
Oh damn, I spent $99 on mine, and thought that was a great deal. If I needed another one $75 would be a no brainer.

Audio Frog was started by an industry legend. His speakers are excellent (although it seems that lately people have forgotten that other brands exist). I figured a $99 sub, in the right box could be pretty impressive. I have some tuning to do, and limited tools to do it with, but so far I'm impressed by the sub. I'm tempted to grab a second one and potentially run a pair sealed at some point, if I get tired of the ported box.
 

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Andy, the man behind Audiofrog, worked at Harman for years. I wouldn't be surprised if he was involved with the development of the Infinity Kappa Perfects that you love so much.
 

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Discussion Starter #164
Oh damn, I spent $99 on mine, and thought that was a great deal. If I needed another one $75 would be a no brainer.

Audio Frog was started by an industry legend. His speakers are excellent (although it seems that lately people have forgotten that other brands exist). I figured a $99 sub, in the right box could be pretty impressive. I have some tuning to do, and limited tools to do it with, but so far I'm impressed by the sub. I'm tempted to grab a second one and potentially run a pair sealed at some point, if I get tired of the ported box.
How does it sound in the ported enclosure? Still good clarity and transient response?
 

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Discussion Starter #165
Andy, the man behind Audiofrog, worked at Harman for years. I wouldn't be surprised if he was involved with the development of the Infinity Kappa Perfects that you love so much.
Oh wow! Now that is interesting. Huh. That would be funny if my favorite Perfects and the Audio Frog subs were made the same way inside. Just let me go grab my trusty X-ray goggles...
 

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How does it sound in the ported enclosure? Still good clarity and transient response?
It sounds good, but I'm really limited with EQ at the moment. This build started off with a philosophy of being as simple as possible. I'm running a Kenwood double din with 3-way active crossovers, and I wanted to see how far I could take it's features before I would need to add a DSP.

I put the sub in a 1.5 cf box, tuned to 28hz. It digs low, is very efficient, and sounds clean. However, being the first ported box I've run in my car, and also the first sub I've put into this particular car, I could use more EQ for the sub than the Kenwood gives me. I'm confident that I can improve the sound with what I have now, and that adding a proper DSP would make it a breeze. This 10" is wired to a 600 watt amp channel, and puts out PLENTY of bass with my gains VERY low, and the sub level turned down on the head unit. It is efficient, that's for sure.

So, at the moment it's not as good as the pair of SBP 15's IB were, but I do have confidence that with some tuning it will do excellently. I just may need to get a proper DSP, with more useful low frequency EQ to get it right. We'll see what I can do with just this Kenwood DMX906S for now. If the new car wasn't a hatchback, I would have built a baffle long ago to run IB, but I think this low tuned ported box will handle the job nicely.
 

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You can probably cross it higher, but you still have to be careful of localization. Even clean bass will become localizable after abou 120hz.
...
Well that is the question...
Some, literature says that 250 to 300 Hz is where it is localizable.
So I am assuming that a not too "clean" sub may have a 3rd harmonic that is high for an 80Hz cross over (I.e. 240 Hz)
Or a "clean" sub at 120 may have its second harmonic at 240 be under that 250-300 Hz region.
But a bandpass arraignment could have the lowest harmonics... which is why I am interested in going that route.

But I doubt I would try too much over 120 Hz, as I think the woofer I am using should be able to play fairly low... but I would like to try it and see.

The main problem that I believe exists is how and where the higher frequency port starts blocking/attenuating those freqs.

And then whether the lowest tuned port and the highest tuned port do not make a bit of a hole in the 40-50 range... right where I likely need the most power... as the cabin gain starts under ~50 Hz...
 

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Discussion Starter #169
Ok, holy crap, I had to come give a little update to my subwoofer shenanigans. I built a sealed enclosure for my new (to me) 15" Acoustic Elegance SBP15 woofer, and tossed it in the truck. Holy. Shit. Yeah I think it's even more punchy and responsive than my Infinity Perfect 10.1, with none of the distortion at higher volume levels. The cone area of the 15-incher is 2.6 times the area of the 10-incher. I would say that if you had three of these 10.1's you'd have a sub that sounds and feels pretty much like the Acoustic Elegance one, but I still think the SBP must still be more punchy, just because of the way it's designed. It's a pretty close call though.

Observation #1: The SBP15 is hilariously loose-feeling when you just take your hand and press in the cone. The surround is really thin, and the whole woofer just moves in and out with a tiny fraction of the manual force, compared to how that Rockville W12K9 felt. Feels, and looks, like some really cheap, generic paper cone speaker, until you actually hook it up and send some bass through it, then it blows your mind. And I mean if you exert about 5 pounds of force with your hand on the SBP's cone, it would probably be at the bottom of travel for the coil, but that same 5 pounds on the cone of the W12K9 and the cone would only move about 2mm.

Observation #2: The SBP's basket and terminals are of great quality. Sturdy, modern, and nice to look at. But the paper cone is so thin and flimsy, you can dent it really easily with your fingernail. I'd be afraid of sending it's full (rated) 500 watts RMS of power through it, because that flimsy paper cone feels like it's going to deform like crazy, affecting sound quality and driver longevity. Also since this subwoofer is supposed to be able to reproduce much higher frequencies than normal subs, wouldn't the floppiness of the thin paper cone show up as poor mid range quality? I think a lot of frequencies might just be gobbled up by that floppy cone. I wonder if I can go shopping for a whole different 15" cone some day (made of aluminum or carbon fiber) and replace the floppy-ass stock one myself.

Observation #3: I left all the volume levels the same when switching out the 10.1 for the SBP15, just to compare output volume levels. With that loosey-goosey suspension and ultra-lightweight cheap paper cone, the SBP15 is ultra power-efficient. Ultra loud. Leaving everything alone and playing the same song, you get like 4x the volume level from the 15-incher than the 10-incher. That's unexpected, and happy. I thought they'd be close in output because the 10.1 is already very efficient at like 94db @1 watt, but the 15 is in a whole 'nother category. I thought I'd have to turn the 15 up from the 10, but I actually had to turn it down to about half the volume level. Wouldn't take much power at all to drive this huge thing. I think if all you had was a real 300 watts RMS, that would be more than enough and at day-to-day volume levels you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 300 watts and 3000 watts. Would I get more close to volume level if I could put a 15" cone onto the 10" guts somehow? My God it's too bad Infinity never made a 15.1 subwoofer. It probably would have sounded very close to this glorious earth-shaker in terms of sound quality, clarity, impact, etc.

My own two cents on doing a cheap sound-quality subwoofer build: If I was starting from scratch again, I'd steer people on over to Audio Frog, and buy a single 12-inch sub from them and put it in a cheap, small sealed box. In terms of power, feed it maybe a true 500 Watts RMS from any cheap amp (like Rockville), and call it good. Place the sub right behind the driver's seat if possible so you can feel it even more. You'll then have a delightful mixture of tight, accurate bass sound quality, mixed with real power, impact and punchiness, for a few hundred bucks. Audio Frog seems to be able to build their subs with the same type of magic punchiness that is in the old Infinity 12.1 (or 10.1) and the Acoustic Elegance woofers, and they're cheap (especially on clearance sales!). Audio Frog isn't on Amazon though, you have to go to their website.

My two cents on subwoofers in general: Don't be like me and fooled by really huge, cool-looking subwoofers. That gigantic magnet doesn't mean it will sound good. That ultra-stiff-cone doesn't mean anything either, just that it will probably take a whole lot more amplifier power to overcome all that mechanical resistance from the surround and suspension components. Go for SQ and not SPL. The subwoofer market is designed and advertised for the Beavis and Butthead type. People who only care about hitting insanely high volume levels at one specific, annoying frequency, like around 50 Hz. That's who the "bass boost" knob was designed for. Well that shit gets old really quickly. A subwoofer built for accuracy and transient response will be much more impressive to both you, and your lady friends. They won't know how to recognize a flimsy, cheap-ass paper cone anyways ;)
 

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I just purchased the same sub your having issues with , the Kappa 1200w. I can attest to it not sounding that great. Compared to the Peerless XLS-12 and Dayton DVC310-88, it is a joke. tried breaking it in free air for almost 2 days and while it did get the suspension a bit looser it is still stiff and it just sounds dry. I was using it in a 1.5cf sealed box. I would not recommend it as an SQ sub, no real definition.
 

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Discussion Starter #171
I just purchased the same sub your having issues with , the Kappa 1200w. I can attest to it not sounding that great. Compared to the Peerless XLS-12 and Dayton DVC310-88, it is a joke. tried breaking it in free air for almost 2 days and while it did get the suspension a bit looser it is still stiff and it just sounds dry. I was using it in a 1.5cf sealed box. I would not recommend it as an SQ sub, no real definition.
Ha! Yep, that was my experience too, what a stiff, boring-sounding sub. Too bad too, I was really surprised because I love Infinity. They dropped the ball on that subwoofer somehow. It's so weird, once they had the design of the Perfect 12.1 sub, why would they go and change it so much? I mean I could see making the basket look fancier and stuff, but they had such an AMAZING SQ sub. They should have kept the voice coil and all the guts the same and just made cosmetic improvements, not throw everything away and start from scratch with the next model. I looked up that Peerless sub you have, looks like an awesome, affordable sub. I like the Fs of 18Hz :)
 

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The XLS-12 is the best bass i've heard in a car, bar none. It's sound is so deep and rich. I'm on the lookout for another one as I have not been able to get that sound from any other sub I've tried, only sub that has come close for me is the DVC310, but the XLS is more refined and clear.
 

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Call me lazy, but I just like to slam something in a box and I can move out of my car or van when I need to move things.

I went from a 15 Inch DUal Boss subs, to a 15" Mofo 2 ohm. Sure I loved being able to shake my car, but... The sound was never good with the Mofo. It was loud. It was never great. It went deep as all hell. But it never sounded great.

It was FUN. It sits in the house.

So... I had these great quality ported boxes. One has had a Hifonix 12" driver. I think I got it for $20 bucks on sale at fry's a while back. After years, it is still my favorite budget sub. It sounds quick, it reaches down low, and does not sound boomy. It sounds musical. Not one note at all. Even in the Prebuilt box. I have to admit, it sounds best in my Van where I have a LARGE cabin.

I keep looking at doing a real head shaking build for SPL when I want to go to an audio show. But I never really get around to it. I kind of miss embarrassing the dude next to me with some so called slamming system next to me at a stoplight. :) But that gets kind of old after while. I was thinking about just getting some Sundowns and having someone make a box JUST for my van to be a loud slamming monster, but each time? I'm about to drop the ball, I realize I really like having a Windshield that does not have a crack in it :)

SQ is really where it is at. Though I really want to do Hair tricks JUST ONCE in my life at a show. I'd rather not LIVE with that kind of system all the time.

Sure Steve Meads build is more of what I would do. Not a full out wall. 4 big 18 to 22 inch subs, Tuned for the box. if I could get it to sound great with my front stage? Sure. But having a sub box large enough you need to rent a storage unit to store it in when you need to work on your car? Or use it for work? Yea.. Not really. Maybe in a few more years.

But I'm not kidding, try the Hifonics subwoofer if you like acoustic music and easy REady made boxes. 2 of them will work the best really. I like to run my subs in stereo if I can. Just a preference.

Also, those Infinity reference drivers? I love them.

I still love the way the OLD rockford Fosgate subs sound like. And really, I think the Hifonics is just a clone of that with a poly cone sound wise.

But that Peerless! If you match the box to the cabin air space? Tune it perfect? I can't think of a better go to subwoofer that the price is right, and performs so well. The subes are usually pretty well matched too. They don't have a ton of free air noise either. Something I noticed with the Kappa's subs I helped a buddy with.

I would like to ask you guys, have you heard a acoustic difference between Baltic Birch vs MDF boxes? I have heard that Fiber glass can be done well or even Plexiglass if you go thick enough. But when it comes to sub boxes? I can't really hear any difference between the two from the 3 examples I heard.
 

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The XLS-12 is the best bass i've heard in a car, bar none. It's sound is so deep and rich. I'm on the lookout for another one as I have not been able to get that sound from any other sub I've tried, only sub that has come close for me is the DVC310, but the XLS is more refined and clear.
Just picked up a Peerless XXLS 835017 for $119!!!! Love Amazon!
 
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