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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
my setup

2015 tundra crewmax
audio frog gb15s in front door sail panel
audio frog gb60 in front doors
helix p6 mk2
ebay box / two kicker comp rt10
resonix about 60% front doors
resonix rear cab wall
factory head unit - high level input into helix
front dash and center speakers disconnected, radio faded forward so rears don’t play
dayton umm6 with calibration file

my install took a while but everything went well with one exception. The factory radio won’t clip the input and for some reason I can’t use input tuning on my helix (no place to drag channels in the software)

I set my crossovers as below

gb15 1800-
gb60 80-3700
subs (2 ohm load) 20-80
all 24db butter worth

I used a laser and tape measure to set the delay but that really seemed to shift the stage left. I finally got the auto time alignment to work by cranking up all the channel gains. It now sounds a little more balanced. It’s better than factory i guess but just doesn’t seem like everything is working together. My wife’s inifinti Bose system sounds a lot more balanced (granted more speakers)

I would like to use the autoset function of the helix to eq the system. There doesn’t seem to be any good videos or details on how to do it. I can’t seem to get my reference curve to match up enough so that the tune can happen. Should I be changing the deviation settings to match the range of the crossover? Should the curve be above or below the measurement?

Rectangle Product Slope Font Parallel
 

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Few things - why are you overlapping the crossovers?
Why use BW when LR is the most standard and successful xover type?

This can only do so much. You’re better off using REW and doing it to set your levels for you at a certain house curve and level.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Few things - why are you overlapping the crossovers?
Why use BW when LR is the most standard and successful xover type?

This can only do so much. You’re better off using REW and doing it to set your levels for you at a certain house curve and level.
I assumed I needed some overlap since this is a two way setup.
 

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I can't help you much in regards to using the Helix RTA feature. Using REW along with speaker & house curve text files is a lot easier to use.

Sometimes it is necessary to overlap your crossovers, but most of the time underlapping crossovers is what a lot of people do. It all depends on the response of each speaker in your system.

For a starting point try these settings. Try to always use LR24 slopes if the speaker response will allow it.

GB15 2500
GB60 80 - 2500
Subs 20 - 80

If your gonna give it the college try using the Helix RTA, try doing each side first, minus the Subs. Meaning with only the Left side GB15&GB60 playing. Adjust the curve level about 3db above the lowest point in the speakers response. Then do the right side and match the level to Left side. Its important to have each side playing at the same loudness. When you have each side matched, then add your Subs, and do the entire system.
 

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I assumed I needed some overlap since this is a two way setup.
You need to overlap if that is the only way to get the correct acoustical slopes.
Don't let someone tell you do/don't overlap, only use 24db LR filters yadayadayada.... all that matters is that you get the acoustical slopes of your drivers to align with an acoustical LR 24db slope (not electrical!).
If you use Butterworth, LR, Bessel, whatever with whatever slopes (12dB, 18dB, 24dB) with whatever frequency in the electrical filter settings that's totally fine if this is the way you can achieve the acoustical slope.
 

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Few things - why are you overlapping the crossovers?
Why use BW when LR is the most standard and successful xover type?

This can only do so much. You’re better off using REW and doing it to set your levels for you at a certain house curve and level.
having one BW is actually preferred especially in midbass to midrange…

quadratic crossovers run 90 deg , in a highly reflective environment BWs work better, a crossover that runs 90 deg , thing about canceling reflections…. 90-180=270 = back in phase

maximally flat is actually preffered in a car…. LRs are just easier to implement….(the ppl that put crossovers in amps know BWs are good that’s why most amps use BWs, same with dexp99rs)… the LR4 is a “slam dunk” it’s always one cycle out of phase… the GD is easy to predict and tracking works well even when the summation is a wreck….. I would take a bW over an LR anyday!!!

even order (BW6, BW18,BW36) sum to 0db… so they sum just like a LR…. (If that’s the worry) and it’s only a worry in LF
 

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You need to overlap if that is the only way to get the correct acoustical slopes.
Don't let someone tell you do/don't overlap, only use 24db LR filters yadayadayada.... all that matters is that you get the acoustical slopes of your drivers to align with an acoustical LR 24db slope (not electrical!).
If you use Butterworth, LR, Bessel, whatever with whatever slopes (12dB, 18dB, 24dB) with whatever frequency in the electrical filter settings that's totally fine if this is the way you can achieve the acoustical slope.
that sir is correct…..
 

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having one BW is actually preferred especially in midbass to midrange…

quadratic crossovers run 90 deg , in a highly reflective environment BWs work better, a crossover that runs 90 deg , thing about canceling reflections…. 90-180=270 = back in phase

maximally flat is actually preffered in a car…. LRs are just easier to implement….(the ppl that put crossovers in amps know BWs are good that’s why most amps use BWs, same with dexp99rs)… the LR4 is a “slam dunk” it’s always one cycle out of phase… the GD is easy to predict and tracking works well even when the summation is a wreck….. I would take a bW over an LR anyday!!!

even order (BW6, BW18,BW36) sum to 0db… so they sum just like a LR…. (If that’s the worry) and it’s only a worry in LF
Yeah because any man who’s just started using auto eq will know exactly what your on about

and summing to 0db doesn’t mean you have good phase through a crossover… 3db of summation isn’t good, so 90 degrees out isn’t in phase, sorry but you do write some rubbish sometimes!

90-180 = 270 = is not in phase again

I literally facepalmed just now!
 

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my setup

2015 tundra crewmax
audio frog gb15s in front door sail panel
audio frog gb60 in front doors
helix p6 mk2
ebay box / two kicker comp rt10
resonix about 60% front doors
resonix rear cab wall
factory head unit - high level input into helix
front dash and center speakers disconnected, radio faded forward so rears don’t play
dayton umm6 with calibration file

my install took a while but everything went well with one exception. The factory radio won’t clip the input and for some reason I can’t use input tuning on my helix (no place to drag channels in the software)

I set my crossovers as below

gb15 1800-
gb60 80-3700
subs (2 ohm load) 20-80
all 24db butter worth

I used a laser and tape measure to set the delay but that really seemed to shift the stage left. I finally got the auto time alignment to work by cranking up all the channel gains. It now sounds a little more balanced. It’s better than factory i guess but just doesn’t seem like everything is working together. My wife’s inifinti Bose system sounds a lot more balanced (granted more speakers)

I would like to use the autoset function of the helix to eq the system. There doesn’t seem to be any good videos or details on how to do it. I can’t seem to get my reference curve to match up enough so that the tune can happen. Should I be changing the deviation settings to match the range of the crossover? Should the curve be above or below the measurement?

View attachment 333760
Love the xover discussion but let's try to get his setup correct 1st...

Use the LR24 straightup xover for now and then once we get the input and T/A corrected then you can experiment with LR vs BW and slope before doing EQ.

Start a new setup with No EQ and set the xover as suggested earlier.

Then, 1st things 1st... The inputs are capable of accepting from 2-20V inputs depending on whether you use RCA or Barrier Strip connections.

You can use the RCA input for really low amplifier power factory HU that can't output 25W or more.

And since you're only doing a stereo input (no need for fader) did you confirm you faded the correct way and are using the correct speaker wires?

Inputs E & F can accept a REALLY low level input if you can't get it to clip on either the High Level or Low Level input.

Assuming you're using the Barrier Strip connections, did you put (or confirm) the jumpers in the correct position on the inside for the Lo Range on the High Level Input?
Font Number

Then go to page 20 in the user manual for the correct settings.
Font Rectangle Material property Parallel Screenshot

Once you get the inputs set correctly then we need to see why your Time Alignment didn't work correctly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Most of this crossover discussion is way over my head. I have read andys guide and not to say I understand it all I am trying to use some of his suggestions (24db slopes, etc.) This is an interesting discussion and I would like to learn more. Im an old guy that used to throw a hifonics genesis on a passive crossover mb quarts and kicker subs and call it a day :) ... this DSP stuff is a learning curve.


For a starting point try these settings. Try to always use LR24 slopes if the speaker response will allow it.

GB15 2500
GB60 80 - 2500
Subs 20 - 80
Ok I can make this adjustment.


Love the xover discussion but let's try to get his setup correct 1st...

Use the LR24 straightup xover for now and then once we get the input and T/A corrected then you can experiment with LR vs BW and slope before doing EQ.

Start a new setup with No EQ and set the xover as suggested earlier.

Then, 1st things 1st... The inputs are capable of accepting from 2-20V inputs depending on whether you use RCA or Barrier Strip connections.

You can use the RCA input for really low amplifier power factory HU that can't output 25W or more.

And since you're only doing a stereo input (no need for fader) did you confirm you faded the correct way and are using the correct speaker wires?

Inputs E & F can accept a REALLY low level input if you can't get it to clip on either the High Level or Low Level input.

Assuming you're using the Barrier Strip connections, did you put (or confirm) the jumpers in the correct position on the inside for the Lo Range on the High Level Input?
View attachment 333805
Then go to page 20 in the user manual for the correct settings.
View attachment 333806
Once you get the inputs set correctly then we need to see why your Time Alignment didn't work correctly.
I read about the jumper settings in the manual and made an assumption that they were correct for my application (factory head unit/factory amplifier unplugged and not used) however I did not check them. I will check that tonight. Also I didn't think about using the RCA inputs but that's not a bad thought. Might help with the input gain. I will also verify that I am using the front input pair.
 

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I read about the jumper settings in the manual and made an assumption that they were correct for my application (factory head unit/factory amplifier unplugged and not used) however I did not check them. I will check that tonight. Also I didn't think about using the RCA inputs but that's not a bad thought. Might help with the input gain. I will also verify that I am using the front input pair.
If the factory amplifier is unplugged then you are definitely using what's "supposed" to be Low Level RCA signals - the High Level inputs are for use AFTER the factory amplifier.
 

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@cathul is right gang….

Listen , crossovers will do there function no matter what as long as acoustically there
Yeah because any man who’s just started using auto eq will know exactly what your on about

and summing to 0db doesn’t mean you have good phase through a crossover… 3db of summation isn’t good, so 90 degrees out isn’t in phase, sorry but you do write some rubbish sometimes! Let me repeat in bold caps
. Is that clear enough

90-180 = 270 = is not in phase again

I literally facepalmed just now!
see that’s where your wrong….. even order butts sum to 0db …. (Stop hitting yourself, download rephase and run the sim yourself and see) EVEN ORDER BUTTS SUM TO zero decibels

listen closely, it doesn’t matter if the crossover puts everything at +/-90 , the phase shift by itself isn’t a big deal!!! It’s when two or more things are summing when even a small phase shift can wreak havoc

it’s only in low frequencies where odd butts can be problematic… where the phase is sensitive. A butt 12 on a tweet to mid works fine. And sums fine given the proper implementation… the trade offs (extra emphasis) trade offs can be worth it

Overall , the crossover as a whole system matters, a crossover is only textbook when it’s a two way complimentary… as soon as you band pass one the phase changes dramatically throughout.. it can cause serious summing and phase issues midband as well

I’m not going to smack myself in the face, I’m not a dumdum (jk) but man,please run some sims yourself…… watch the gladen video that was just released.. he goes into some of it

so….. it’s only “rubbish” if you don’t fully understand….. because I was also in the only LR4 gang for a long time after reading countless erroneous pages online…. LR4 is a good crossover, but it’s not the only choice and definitely absolutely not the only way….

you also just made yourself look like a rook
Step it up and do your homework before you mouth off like that please
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
If the factory amplifier is unplugged then you are definitely using what's "supposed" to be Low Level RCA signals - the High Level inputs are for use AFTER the factory amplifier.
Checked the jumpers and they were on A1. I also adjusted gains CCW as specified (although changing it doesn't seem to make a difference). This should be correct for a 4 channel radio up 25 watts. The tundra has an unusual setup where the radio powers the front 3 speakers (l, r, c) and rear tweeters. The amplified signal would normally go in to the front and rear midrange drivers.

I can make up an RCA input harness but a little concerned the HU might output too much power. I have read anywhere from 2-15 watts output.
 

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Checked the jumpers and they were on A1. I also adjusted gains CCW as specified (although changing it doesn't seem to make a difference). This should be correct for a 4 channel radio up 25 watts. The tundra has an unusual setup where the radio powers the front 3 speakers (l, r, c) and rear tweeters. The amplified signal would normally go in to the front and rear midrange drivers.

I can make up an RCA input harness but a little concerned the HU might output too much power. I have read anywhere from 2-15 watts output.
Trying to wrap my brain around that...

You're using a HU amplified front (LRC) for the Highs and the low level input to the OEM Outboard Amp for the Lows... is that correct?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

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I can make up an RCA input harness but a little concerned the HU might output too much power. I have read anywhere from 2-15 watts output.
The RCA inputs can accept up to 4V on the LO (A1) Setting and 8V on the HI (A2) Setting - hook up the RCA Harness and and "carefully" turn up the volume - if it clips before the HU does then move the jumper for the RCA input to A2 and try again.

Since you don't have enough voltage to drive the High Level inputs it shouldn't be too much for the Low Level inputs on HI jumper settings.


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

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@Delray - does your Tundra have the JBL system? If so, the signal is garbage from amp and you would do much better with an Amp Pro to retain your factory head unit. Then you can do optical to Helix or RCA (whichever you like) and the signal is much better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Trying to wrap my brain around that...

You're using a HU amplified front (LRC) for the Highs and the low level input to the OEM Outboard Amp for the Lows... is that correct?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
no just stating how it’s wired from the factory. I am just using the front speaker outputs As high level inputs to the helix.


@Delray - does your Tundra have the JBL system? If so, the signal is garbage from amp and you would do much better with an Amp Pro to retain your factory head unit. Then you can do optical to Helix or RCA (whichever you like) and the signal is much better.
Non jBl system. Factory amp is disconnected. Just radio in to the helix.
 

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Yeah because any man who’s just started using auto eq will know exactly what your on about

and summing to 0db doesn’t mean you have good phase through a crossover… 3db of summation isn’t good, so 90 degrees out isn’t in phase, sorry but you do write some rubbish sometimes!

90-180 = 270 = is not in phase again

I literally facepalmed just now!
I thought it was just me. Lots of technical writing, but man, I really just want to hear this guy's car to see what's up lol

OP, I offer a remote tuning service and can help you get squared away if needed.

Edit: obi, I'm definitely down to come visit Colorado (I have plenty of friends to visit there too) and swing by for a day or two and hang out. I'm genuinely curious about the things you talk about and what your car sounds like.
 
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