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I don't plan on throwing anybody under the bus but the "raw driver crowd" got pushed to the side a long time ago. Lots of new members came in voiced opinions. The Raw driver crowd would peek in, ask for logical thought process behind an opinion and an ensuing ban war would take place because the new membership was up in arms over a lot of legit questions.

Lycan, Wolf, and whatever other names he had came and went several times because of the trolling that took place due to opinions vs. calculated thought processes.

What few members remain from back then tend to keep their technical drivel to themselves these days. I miss it. A lot. I spent 3 years just reading this forum before I joined in 2009. It wasn't because I was intimidated...it was because I was learning so much and I didn't need to comment in order to find an answer.

Prime example is the term "rear fill" Wolf/Lycan went after this one. Subtract L-R, bandpass ~300hz thru ~3khz and add about 20ms of delay. Has anybody seen the comments to that thread? It's ridiculously long because nobody cared to read the thought process. Just a bunch of comments that equate to "rear fill is stupid!". Well Lycan pointed out that rear stereo is stupid and backed up his statements.

Npdang and the klippel is another nightmare I won't discuss.

But what all NEW members need to know is that this site was established on the foundation of DIY with RAW drivers. It was a huge epiphany to some to realize that the same raw drivers used in a $3k+ retail set could be had for $500.

I just wish I had the brain to continue a lot of the old discussions.

i remember arguing on the phone with eric holdaway in the very early 90's that he was selling a $159 12" NHT for $400, and that his 6.5 comps were just dynaudio 17w175's and no matter how good of am installer he was , doing what he was doing was bullshit. This was before internet....
 

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I don't plan on throwing anybody under the bus but the "raw driver crowd" got pushed to the side a long time ago. Lots of new members came in voiced opinions. The Raw driver crowd would peek in, ask for logical thought process behind an opinion and an ensuing ban war would take place because the new membership was up in arms over a lot of legit questions.

Lycan, Wolf, and whatever other names he had came and went several times because of the trolling that took place due to opinions vs. calculated thought processes.

What few members remain from back then tend to keep their technical drivel to themselves these days. I miss it. A lot. I spent 3 years just reading this forum before I joined in 2009. It wasn't because I was intimidated...it was because I was learning so much and I didn't need to comment in order to find an answer.

Prime example is the term "rear fill" Wolf/Lycan went after this one. Subtract L-R, bandpass ~300hz thru ~3khz and add about 20ms of delay. Has anybody seen the comments to that thread? It's ridiculously long because nobody cared to read the thought process. Just a bunch of comments that equate to "rear fill is stupid!". Well Lycan pointed out that rear stereo is stupid and backed up his statements.

Npdang and the klippel is another nightmare I won't discuss.

But what all NEW members need to know is that this site was established on the foundation of DIY with RAW drivers. It was a huge epiphany to some to realize that the same raw drivers used in a $3k+ retail set could be had for $500.

I just wish I had the brain to continue a lot of the old discussions.
I agree with a lot of this but the attitude of the raw driver crowd turned me off to raw drivers. The elitist attitude that they know something I don't know because I chose a component set got old quick. It's the same attitude you get if you spend more than $200 on a front stage. You're automatically labeled as clueless and you have more money than brains and you could have gotten the same performance for $2. Raw home audio drivers aren't automatically better than components and car audio specific raw drivers and while there are some real gems out there that don't cost much, most of the time the more expensive stuff is better. Don't get me wrong, finding great stuff for cheap is what we all want but spending a fair amount of money for some really good speakers is almost looked down upon.

I wish there was more open mindedness from both sides. It seems like once an idea like all rear fill is bad gets out there it's repeated over and over as fact without ever questioning the idea.

I like the Klippel and it's always going to be a heated topic. I think it's great for eliminating certain drivers from consideration but I don't believe it can tell you how a speaker, especially in the front stage will sound, not at all. I'm trying to get Erin to test my Dyn 182 midbasses knowing something out there will outperform them in some area and their cost and the owner's sanity will be questioned but I still like to have objective data.
 

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Where can you buy Dynaudio raw car audio drivers? I really want some new mids and there is nothing on Madisound or Parts Express that I want and that will fit (2.5" depth limit) and am about ready to whip out my Crutchfield credit card and pick up a set of K2P's.
here is an idea the VW CC upgraded audio has dynaudio speakers
maybe a parts yard and rob the mid drivers cheap

just a thought
here is what the cc has in it

VW CC Dynaudio Premium Doors Speakers | eBay
 

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I agree with a lot of this but the attitude of the raw driver crowd turned me off to raw drivers. The elitist attitude that they know something I don't know because I chose a component set got old quick. It's the same attitude you get if you spend more than $200 on a front stage. You're automatically labeled as clueless and you have more money than brains and you could have gotten the same performance for $2. Raw home audio drivers aren't automatically better than components and car audio specific raw drivers and while there are some real gems out there that don't cost much, most of the time the more expensive stuff is better. Don't get me wrong, finding great stuff for cheap is what we all want but spending a fair amount of money for some really good speakers is almost looked down upon.

I wish there was more open mindedness from both sides. It seems like once an idea like all rear fill is bad gets out there it's repeated over and over as fact without ever questioning the idea.

I like the Klippel and it's always going to be a heated topic. I think it's great for eliminating certain drivers from consideration but I don't believe it can tell you how a speaker, especially in the front stage will sound, not at all. I'm trying to get Erin to test my Dyn 182 midbasses knowing something out there will outperform them in some area and their cost and the owner's sanity will be questioned but I still like to have objective data.
I'm pretty open-minded, when it comes to rear fill....

wait, don't, haha..

now, the Klippel is a place where audio brand snobbery goes to die, and some would say that's bad because it's a hero killer. You love your dyn's and you might be willing to tolerate seeing a poor performance from them on the Klippel, but there are quite a few who would attempt to stop that nonsense. Some may even run this place, lol....


the loss of the Klippel in concrete terms means the status quo gets to continue, the push for and sale of high-dollar inventory is at stake, and things like shootouts that are comprised of subjective rankings and given equal merit as the Klippel section in this forum, are towards those profit ends.

not that this place needs a rudder but if you look closely you can see the drift, and eventual target area reached not the same as when npdang was doing his heavy testing and minimal subjective notes. And, wasn't selling the product, except for his DIYMA 12, an attempt at greatness based on his knowledge.

Now, that might make me unpopular in certain quarters, but I believe the ability to debate, the freedom to argue the merits of a commercialized zone versus a friendly discussion and ruthless examination of the products, should be in play here.
 

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if passive crossovers are built correctly then they can sound really good

home audio has been doing this for years in very high end speakers like martin logan, sonus faber, vienna acoustics etc. You get the point

looks like the key is to built a passive with interchangeable values because raw drivers will sound and act different in a car environment , size of enclosure, baffle, materials, cloth interior or leather etc.



built by Werner Jagusch They are auto former based. You can choose from several crossover points to adjust the sound [9 high adjustments AND 2 low adjustments on each side].As well, there is an attenuator on each side for fine tuning the sound.
I wasn't trying to imply that there was a problem with passive x-overs, I was just making the point that the true old-school DIY crowd (the ones who pic drivers based on performance, not just a matching brand name) usually like the flexibility of a fully-active setup.
 

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I (consciously or not) almost universally pick the product that will be the biggest pain in the ass to work with. It's classification doesn't matter too much. :(
 

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I wasn't trying to imply that there was a problem with passive x-overs, I was just making the point that the true old-school DIY crowd (the ones who pic drivers based on performance, not just a matching brand name) usually like the flexibility of a fully-active setup.
I got that but when u say old school what yrs are u referring to?
the first active crossovers 1 way or 2 way I don't think 3 way with a band pass
Section did come till around mid 90s before that there wasn't that option unless you double stacked 2 ways crossovers - I did that back in the day with Orion and Rockford

I always get confused when people say old school to me.
I guess for me since I've been installing professionally for 23 yr
It would be pre time correction (digitally that is) below 1995 ish I guess

But then again I remember old school fun tring to build passive load matching
Crossovers to run an entire system on one amp for the Isaac up 50 class 51-100
I don't miss those days
 

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I'm pretty open-minded, when it comes to rear fill....

wait, don't, haha..

now, the Klippel is a place where audio brand snobbery goes to die, and some would say that's bad because it's a hero killer. You love your dyn's and you might be willing to tolerate seeing a poor performance from them on the Klippel, but there are quite a few who would attempt to stop that nonsense. Some may even run this place, lol....


the loss of the Klippel in concrete terms means the status quo gets to continue, the push for and sale of high-dollar inventory is at stake, and things like shootouts that are comprised of subjective rankings and given equal merit as the Klippel section in this forum, are towards those profit ends.

not that this place needs a rudder but if you look closely you can see the drift, and eventual target area reached not the same as when npdang was doing his heavy testing and minimal subjective notes. And, wasn't selling the product, except for his DIYMA 12, an attempt at greatness based on his knowledge.

Now, that might make me unpopular in certain quarters, but I believe the ability to debate, the freedom to argue the merits of a commercialized zone versus a friendly discussion and ruthless examination of the products, should be in play here.
The problem with that is no one has shown speakers that do better on the klippel sound better. It's good for determining crossover points and showing true xmax, and a bunch of other things to use for eliminating a speaker from your selection but no one has shown that what klippels well sounds well. Otherwise we would just go to the klippel section, pick what klippels the best an everyone would be running the same speakers.

I put more faith in a group of enthusiasts in a double blind listening test because in the end its what we hear that matters, not which one has better klippel numbers. Don't get me wrong, I wish we were able to determine what would sound better based on the klippel alone.
 

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The problem with that is no one has shown speakers that do better on the klippel sound better. It's good for determining crossover points and showing true xmax, and a bunch of other things to use for eliminating a speaker from your selection but no one has shown that what klippels well sounds well. Otherwise we would just go to the klippel section, pick what klippels the best an everyone would be running the same speakers.

I put more faith in a group of enthusiasts in a double blind listening test because in the end its what we hear that matters, not which one has better klippel numbers. Don't get me wrong, I wish we were able to determine what would sound better based on the klippel alone.

the reverse of that is no one can claim that their speakers Klippel poorly and yet retain great sound quality.

when the Klippel urges the manufacturers into threats of litigation, based on their drivers performing poorly due to manufacturer tolerance issues, that's a sign that the Klippel is exposing the truth about those drivers.

I understand how it might be that a distortion analyzer might indicate a truly distortion-free product and how it might be that some people prefer the tonal colorations of distortion, and then you have observations like you put forth, but the distortion analyzer seems to me, to be the best indicator of performance and subjective reviews that are done by people preparing to open an audio retail shop, with this community for a base, are second fiddle to the machine.

I think the disappearance of the Klippel and the various "boo-boo's" by the ones operating the machine, were orchestrated to remove the Klippel's stature as a determining mechanism, basically it was a concerted effort by several parties that conspired to not let Klippel results get out, first, and if they were out, only used to promote good results. Bad Klippel is automatically questioned, and then the operator's ability is questioned, the equipment used, the rack that holds the DUT, the amplifier, it goes on and on. There was a time when a bad Klippel was just that, people still liked the speakers but a gradual shift towards vilification of certain brands *Morel*cough> due to inconsistency or offsets, has made it less attractive as a tool for forum use.

The admin of this site (6speedcoupe) is a dealer for the same brands that should they be tested, and test poorly, directly affects the amount of speakers that he can push through here. There is a vested interest, and I'm not saying there is causation as to why the Klippel is no longer a forum tool, but there's a possible correlation.

And I'm not saying these things as a way to pressure or throw a negative light on anyone, or their business, or even the products they sell. I am saying them as a way to explain what might not be obvious as to why the general shift from home audio drivers to car audio component sets is occurring.

it's just an opinion, not claiming any of this is facts, I do not believe people will put their own livelihood and reputations on the line and allow Klippel tests to undermine their sales figures.

If it was just another test, like a frequency response curve, there would be less drama. Even bikinpunk's published FR curves get static, and there's been less of those too. He's moving, he's stepping away from the board, he's busy with the new house and all, that's great. But again, anything that attempts to stand objectively these drivers in a competition, is immediately attacked and discouraged, but the subjective comparison of some expensive drivers, wins?

Maybe it IS just me.
 

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I got that but when u say old school what yrs are u referring to?
the first active crossovers 1 way or 2 way I don't think 3 way with a band pass
Section did come till around mid 90s before that there wasn't that option unless you double stacked 2 ways crossovers - I did that back in the day with Orion and Rockford

I always get confused when people say old school to me.
I guess for me since I've been installing professionally for 23 yr
It would be pre time correction (digitally that is) below 1995 ish I guess

But then again I remember old school fun tring to build passive load matching
Crossovers to run an entire system on one amp for the Isaac up 50 class 51-100
I don't miss those days
In this particular case I was using old school to refer to the "craze" that was mentioned in the OP where members used to try to find value-oriented and often less expensive alternatives to brand name equipment.
 

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I remember reading about some who would tune ACTIVELY and then create passive crossovers with those same characteristics in an effort to simplify the installation. I thought that was neat.

I think Klippel is only good for those that understand the T/s specs they want for a specific circumstance. Since vehicles and interior materials or shapes change so much I stopped trying to correlate specs with sound. I just throw it in now :) The dogma of trying to scientifically understand the relationships wore me out.
 

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the reverse of that is no one can claim that their speakers Klippel poorly and yet retain great sound quality.

when the Klippel urges the manufacturers into threats of litigation, based on their drivers performing poorly due to manufacturer tolerance issues, that's a sign that the Klippel is exposing the truth about those drivers.

I understand how it might be that a distortion analyzer might indicate a truly distortion-free product and how it might be that some people prefer the tonal colorations of distortion, and then you have observations like you put forth, but the distortion analyzer seems to me, to be the best indicator of performance and subjective reviews that are done by people preparing to open an audio retail shop, with this community for a base, are second fiddle to the machine.

I think the disappearance of the Klippel and the various "boo-boo's" by the ones operating the machine, were orchestrated to remove the Klippel's stature as a determining mechanism, basically it was a concerted effort by several parties that conspired to not let Klippel results get out, first, and if they were out, only used to promote good results. Bad Klippel is automatically questioned, and then the operator's ability is questioned, the equipment used, the rack that holds the DUT, the amplifier, it goes on and on. There was a time when a bad Klippel was just that, people still liked the speakers but a gradual shift towards vilification of certain brands *Morel*cough> due to inconsistency or offsets, has made it less attractive as a tool for forum use.

The admin of this site (6speedcoupe) is a dealer for the same brands that should they be tested, and test poorly, directly affects the amount of speakers that he can push through here. There is a vested interest, and I'm not saying there is causation as to why the Klippel is no longer a forum tool, but there's a possible correlation.

And I'm not saying these things as a way to pressure or throw a negative light on anyone, or their business, or even the products they sell. I am saying them as a way to explain what might not be obvious as to why the general shift from home audio drivers to car audio component sets is occurring.

it's just an opinion, not claiming any of this is facts, I do not believe people will put their own livelihood and reputations on the line and allow Klippel tests to undermine their sales figures.

If it was just another test, like a frequency response curve, there would be less drama. Even bikinpunk's published FR curves get static, and there's been less of those too. He's moving, he's stepping away from the board, he's busy with the new house and all, that's great. But again, anything that attempts to stand objectively these drivers in a competition, is immediately attacked and discouraged, but the subjective comparison of some expensive drivers, wins?

Maybe it IS just me.
I don't know why we don't have a klippel here anymore.

I like objective data even if its not in my favor. I agree that if you have a driver that tests very poorly it's going to sound bad. Case in point my short lived awful sounding Massive Audio SK-6 center channel was tested and I believe Erin commented that it was the worst test he had ever seen and it subjectively sounded like crap to me as well.

It's great that it can expose poor build quality and inconsistencies from driver to driver, especially those you pay a lot of money for.

Xmax is another thing the klippel is good for. Didn't all but 3 or 4 speakers have less than advertised? If I remember right the higher end speakers were more likely to have realistic ratings with Scan, Dyn, and at least one other high end brand meeting or exceeding ratings.

Even with distortion, we don't know that the lowest possible distortion sounds the best. It just seems in my opinion that there's a window and if the driver tests within that window, somewhere between average to really good, it's anyone's guess which will sound better.

Jerry's tests got criticism because he's a dealer but let's not forget he was not a dealer when the midrange shoot out was performed and he was only one of several judges in the mid bass shoot out and being a blind test there's no way he's going to know the "Dynaudio sound" and purposely write a positive review. Short of saying he cheated and lied I don't see how his business affiliation should affect the outcome. Plus, we were all invited to participate in the evaluation so if this was so important, the skeptics should have helped judge.

I'm not making excuses for drivers that tested poorly, mine did pretty good, but I don't think we're in a position to condemn drivers based on an average klippel performance because we're just not there yet. Maybe in the future.

Why wouldn't the subjective test have more weight? The end result, what we hear is more important to me than which speaker had .05% THD vs .03%. That's why I say use the klippel to eliminate drivers that don't have the xmax or too much power compression or won't work in the desired bandpass or are inconsistent from driver to driver, etc, and use your ears for final judgement.
 

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I don't know why we don't have a klippel here anymore.

I like objective data even if its not in my favor. I agree that if you have a driver that tests very poorly it's going to sound bad. Case in point my short lived awful sounding Massive Audio SK-6 center channel was tested and I believe Erin commented that it was the worst test he had ever seen and it subjectively sounded like crap to me as well.

It's great that it can expose poor build quality and inconsistencies from driver to driver, especially those you pay a lot of money for.

Xmax is another thing the klippel is good for. Didn't all but 3 or 4 speakers have less than advertised? If I remember right the higher end speakers were more likely to have realistic ratings with Scan, Dyn, and at least one other high end brand meeting or exceeding ratings.

Even with distortion, we don't know that the lowest possible distortion sounds the best. It just seems in my opinion that there's a window and if the driver tests within that window, somewhere between average to really good, it's anyone's guess which will sound better.

Jerry's tests got criticism because he's a dealer but let's not forget he was not a dealer when the midrange shoot out was performed and he was only one of several judges in the mid bass shoot out and being a blind test there's no way he's going to know the "Dynaudio sound" and purposely write a positive review. Short of saying he cheated and lied I don't see how his business affiliation should affect the outcome. Plus, we were all invited to participate in the evaluation so if this was so important, the skeptics should have helped judge.

I'm not making excuses for drivers that tested poorly, mine did pretty good, but I don't think we're in a position to condemn drivers based on an average klippel performance because we're just not there yet. Maybe in the future.

Why wouldn't the subjective test have more weight? The end result, what we hear is more important to me than which speaker had .05% THD vs .03%. That's why I say use the klippel to eliminate drivers that don't have the xmax or too much power compression or won't work in the desired bandpass or are inconsistent from driver to driver, etc, and use your ears for final judgement.
:)

we can agree, to disagree then.

I find scientific analysis is going to trump "shootouts" in the long term, simply because the best performing speakers by Klippel measurements, will usually pan out over time.

The Alpine 8" that they got right, since they published the curves, the JL ZR800, same thing. When the manufacturers hit an assembly/engineering home run, you hear/read about it, and it makes a splash because it is a superior performer, then they can charge a bit more for it.

The idea that somehow average performing Klippel specs in a high cost Scandinavian driver should not translate into "not the best there is" makes sense to me, if there is such an animal out there that does better. Excuse me, tests better. Excuse, tests better, objectively.

If Rockford's T5 series is able to outperform Esotars on a Klippel, do you believe there would be some good discussion material coming from that?

Imagine the Klippel testing all the old benchmarks, F1 Series, etc. against the new crop of Micro Precision Z or Phass, or Brax stuff, or hell... the Illusion Carbon's for that matter. Would Bing be able to push his inverted motor brand if it's got Klippel exposed issues?

There's a lot of people who frequent here, and pay those upgraded/vendor/seller fees, who don't like seeing objectivity on the board. As a result, a nice push comes from beneath, to swing the subjective ranking system, the tier thing, into focus so people feel good about spending the money on the imported stuff.
 

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So which klippel test will guarantee beyond a doubt that one driver will sound better than another? If the Carbon owners are completely satisfied with the sound, is an average klippel going to matter?
 

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So which klippel test will guarantee beyond a doubt that one driver will sound better than another? If the Carbon owners are completely satisfied with the sound, is an average klippel going to matter?
hmm.. smoking gun?


I don't know which, maybe the one that shows up with most non-linearity first?

could be BL, or suspension, or maybe poor quality metal causing eddy currents that are only apparent when nearing Xmax?

I think the problem we're having coming to an agreement on this, is you have faith in people's hearing tests, and I have no problem with that, I also have faith in people's hearing tests. Where we diverge is that I would like the numbers to follow the subjective portion of the program, lol...

Klippel measures several types of distortion and there's no real cut and dry, way to distinguish which driver is guaranteed to sound better based on a mixture of variable profiles, but some correlative evidence would suggest major offsets and operation of the driver in a distorted magnetic field for 80% of the range, would be subjectively worse in comparison to a driver that is able to better those marks.

And we've seen this. One issue of course, is no matter how great your driver measures, if it doesn't get loud, (say, Pioneer TS101PRS) then you might choose another driver that may not measure as well but can handle more power or has higher efficiency.

That means there are many other things that separate the good from the middling, and Klippel is good at showing limitations.

Not having the Klippel show those limitations, is the salesman's license to wax poetic on whatever drivers they happen to be pushing that week.
 

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hmm.. smoking gun?


I don't know which, maybe the one that shows up with most non-linearity first?

could be BL, or suspension, or maybe poor quality metal causing eddy currents that are only apparent when nearing Xmax?

I think the problem we're having coming to an agreement on this, is you have faith in people's hearing tests, and I have no problem with that, I also have faith in people's hearing tests. Where we diverge is that I would like the numbers to follow the subjective portion of the program, lol...

Klippel measures several types of distortion and there's no real cut and dry, way to distinguish which driver is guaranteed to sound better based on a mixture of variable profiles, but some correlative evidence would suggest major offsets and operation of the driver in a distorted magnetic field for 80% of the range, would be subjectively worse in comparison to a driver that is able to better those marks.

And we've seen this. One issue of course, is no matter how great your driver measures, if it doesn't get loud, (say, Pioneer TS101PRS) then you might choose another driver that may not measure as well but can handle more power or has higher efficiency.

That means there are many other things that separate the good from the middling, and Klippel is good at showing limitations.

Not having the Klippel show those limitations, is the salesman's license to wax poetic on whatever drivers they happen to be pushing that week.
I think we agree more than disagree. I too want the klippel's results to follow closely what sounds good and I think that will be possible in the future when people much smarter than myself figure out the intricate relationships.

I'm sure if any parameter is absolutely terrible, it's going to sound terrible. Look at the Massive Audio SK-6 in the Klippel section if you get the time and want a laugh. The part I have trouble with is even if the average or maybe the upper 50% not necessarily following any particular pattern. The ones I've heard didn't necessarily follow the Klippel's rankings and I wish they would. I think it's great that it can show a speaker's limitations and that's what I meant by using the klippel to help eliminate a driver from your selection.

I'm pro klippel and objective data, I just don't think we can judge a speaker's sound based purely on the klippel assuming nothing is that terrible.

I don't want to put words in his mouth but I believe Erin said in reference to the midrange that was being tested at the time that a very flat FR might possibly be one of the more important factors.

I'm trying to get my midbasses tested knowing they will take some heat no matter how good or how bad they do so I will know their limitations. I also wanted to get the regular Dyn 162 midbass tested since I ran both the Esotar 650 and 162 in the same car, same exact setup, and had the Esotar klippeled. I wanted to see if the Klippel would reveal why the Esotar even with similar TS parameters had a cleaner, clearer midrange and stayed clean until it mechanically bottomed but that test never happened.
 

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About the blind listening tests, I put a lot of weight on those tests as long as there are a decent number of people involved in the listening. Everyone has different tastes but if every tester agrees unanimously on the first place driver, it most likely sounds pretty good. I've literally had people think their Infinity systems sound better because my tweeters don't have enough of that "sssss" sound and keep in mind the Esotar tweeter is very sharp but it's just not harsh. But that's where having a large, diverse, even experienced group comes in. I pay very little attention to a single review of a speaker but when over time many people have the same opinions of a driver like Infinity tweeters being harsh or the Anarchy having great midbass I start to figure it's probably true.
 

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I tried the raw driver thing... If you like mixing and matching stuff to obtain performance similar to a pre-packaged set, then be my guest. I found the JL Audio C5-650s to be a compromise between decent sound and fitting with little modification. Could I have done better by going with raw drivers? Maybe. Then again, how much time and money would I have spent by purchasing, customizing, installing, replacing, tuning, etc?

As I have aged, I found that I have less and less patience for car audio, because in the end, it is just that. The sooner everyone realizes that the mobile environment is the worst possible environment for audio reproduction, the sooner we can put the petty arguments aside.

For the individual out there who is going to tell me that I should purchase a more quiet vehicle... I tried to fit into that stereotype of my particular demographic group by test driving cars that "should be" driven by CPAs and I found the quiet cars to be B O R I N G!
 

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I tried the raw driver thing... If you like mixing and matching stuff to obtain performance similar to a pre-packaged set, then be my guest. I found the JL Audio C5-650s to be a compromise between decent sound and fitting with little modification. Could I have done better by going with raw drivers? Maybe. Then again, how much time and money would I have spent by purchasing, customizing, installing, replacing, tuning, etc?

As I have aged, I found that I have less and less patience for car audio, because in the end, it is just that. The sooner everyone realizes that the mobile environment is the worst possible environment for audio reproduction, the sooner we can put the petty arguments aside.
All of this. Especially the bold parts. In the end the $ figure isn't much different when you factor in time installing/removing/testing different raw drivers and then taking the loss on them when you sell them, If you can sell them.
 

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Agreed with the last two posts. While I like car audio, I'm less of a parts swapper than most and I just want to enjoy the music and have it sound the way it was intended to sound.

My front stage isn't cheap but if I would have just gone with it in the first place instead of experimenting with raw and cheaper drivers I could have saved myself more than the whole front stage costs. It's nice to be done, to the point where I can sit back and enjoy the music. Well, a little tweaking here and there but equipment wise it's done.
 
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