DiyMobileAudio.com Car Stereo Forum banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi all.

Not sure how many people can answer this question but there are not too many other places that understand the question.

Basically, I am in the UK and have ordered a new VW Arteon that comes with the Discover Pro entertainment system.
I intend to fit my Helix P-Six DSP/amp with door components and a rear sub(s) driven from a separate amp.

Main source will likely be a media player through USB audio into the P-Six thus avoiding the factory system entirely but, does anybody know if the VW head unit has a flat outout and/or can be configured for low level out etc.
If it can I might look to simply using the factory head unit and avoid the clunky ish looking external player and Helix URC.3 control.

I appreciate the UK spec head unit could be different but thought it worth an ask at least.

Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Super interested in this. Have the same car with MIB2 fitted and I'm going to fit an external DSP as well.
Right now I'm using an ms8 with factory speakers but the sound is nowhere near where I want to.

AFAIK there is some kind of distortion after 3/4 of volume. I would love to measure it somehow and understand if it's flat or even if there is a loudness curve to take advantage of it and use it as it should (keep the same factory reference levels).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,531 Posts
Most of the older VW's can be programmed with Vagcom for a flat, fullrange signal. I don't know if yours falls into that category, since it's new, but it should be easy enough to find out. Pika's statement about distortion is definetely true of the older head units, the OEM head unit in mine would distort badly at just over half volume.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
In my case (Tiguan 2019 Discover Pro, NO DYNAUDIO) I connected VW head unit to Helix DSP III by High Level imput. The are distorsions in low-level frequencies, the lowest playable frequency is about 110 Hz. I’ve checked twice whole instalation - the problem is with VW HU(quality of the outputs). I’m going to buy a Helix USB Extension Card to stream directly to DSP from my phone.


Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk Pro
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,531 Posts
In my case (Tiguan 2019 Discover Pro, NO DYNAUDIO) I connected VW head unit to Helix DSP III by High Level imput. The are distorsions in low-level frequencies, the lowest playable frequency is about 110 Hz. I’ve checked twice whole instalation - the problem is with VW HU(quality of the outputs). I’m going to buy a Helix USB Extension Card to stream directly to DSP from my phone.


Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk Pro
This sounds about right. The rear speaker wires should carry lower frequencies, but still won't be fullrange, and you still have the distortion issue. If Vagcom works for the new models it'll help a lot, but you'll still need to set your gains in a way that you max out your volume before the head unit starts to distort.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
That's really wierd.
Its this your head unit?


I don't hear any distortion in my case; I do have distortion above 3/4 of the full volume in my head unit so I've set my gains in the DSP to be loud enough when I'm hearing at 50% of volume. The trade-off is some background hiss, but it's ok.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Quick update on this, the output between the front and rear channels are definitely different; rear channels have less bass and a lot more midrange. Mixing both together also doesn't sound like the perfect solution. One thing that helps is messing with the equalizer: cutting bass to around -6 and increasing midrange a bit sounds a little better but to be honest the best option would be to somehow disable this stupid feature.

I've looked into getting optical out of the most150 bus and there is only one company that has this product and is charging a lot of money for it; also, there are no guarantees that the output via optical will be flat...

Suggestions?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Quick update on this, the output between the front and rear channels are definitely different; rear channels have less bass and a lot more midrange. Mixing both together also doesn't sound like the perfect solution. One thing that helps is messing with the equalizer: cutting bass to around -6 and increasing midrange a bit sounds a little better but to be honest the best option would be to somehow disable this stupid feature.

I've looked into getting optical out of the most150 bus and there is only one company that has this product and is charging a lot of money for it; also, there are no guarantees that the output via optical will be flat...

Suggestions?
It's still some months away until I get my Arteon, so I can't play with anything right now, although what you have found with the outputs doesn't surprise me at all.
Bit of a shame if you can't simply change it using VCDS (as you can in some Fords using the relevant software)

Does the Arteon use MOST as a Bus protocol? I can only find information on the Golf 7 that says it does.

If it does then like you say a converter may be a good solution. The Helix SDMI25 seems to be a good option but pricey and there is nothing anywhere that says where in the chain the factory stereo signal is manipulated. Would be a bummer to spend the money on an interface only to find it is still messed with.

All we want is a flat output signal - shouldn't be so hard Mr and Mrs vehicle manufacturers … :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Twonks

Tomorrow maybe I will have some time to desribe my „war” with VW high-level signal in my 2019 Tiguan. But now in short - it’s pointless to seek a quality in VW headunit due to distortions and missings in bandwidth. They are three options with optical connection - I will describe them tomorrow when I get back to home.


Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk Pro
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
OK

My setup : Helix A4, Brax x1000, Helix DSP III with director, Brax Matrix Speakers 1.1 2.1 6.1 (1.1 and 2.1 with Brax crossover, 6.1 active), sub Brax 10.1 active. VW Tig 2019 NO DynAudio.

At the moment the source is the VW head unit (Discover Pro) connected to DSP by high-level input. From the beginning there were a lot of problems with distortions. I checked the whole installation twice – also each amp was checked by specialist (damaged RCA output etc.). The gains of the amps are corrected with an oscilloscope. Diagnose – everything is OK!. The hole equipment is located in a trunk, also car battery. So you can see that the possibility to “catch” distortions from the car (electric installation, fuel pump etc.) is reduced to minimum ( I’ve also tried to “hang” RCA cables from the DSP under the roof lining :D )

As my predecessors wrote – they are big differences in a signal from VW HU. Each channel has DIFFERENT frequency response. The best (main flat) signal I get from left front. But it’s still shitty. The difference in a signal response is +/- 8 dB !!! The most corrupted bandwidth is 56-140 Hz, the less corrupted is midrange bandwidth but still shitty. Only from about 3-4 kHz I’ve got almost flat line. But the most interesting thing – VW HU DOSNT PRODUCE ANYTHING below 55 Hz. My sub is reduced to minimum at the moment – is the only way to don’t damage it. Mixing the gains from other channels to play 55-140 Hz bandwidth is a suicide. But still during the listening, our lovely VW HU can add an extra noise. I don’t know how to describe it exactly – there’s a big “bump” during the low frequencies. The “bump” has a much higher voice than played music (as high as crossover is setted), is “empty” or sth. Also mid tones are mainly reduced to minimum (by VW of course). Interesting thing that on each VW volume level the distortions take different shapes. The most interesting thing is that when you turn off your car and turn on it again, the distortions on a the same music level of VW head unit are DIFFERENT  When I saw this video
I was thinking I got it! I played a pink noise (all crossovers and filters were set to “0”) and started to modify an output gain of each channel. I have to admit that I thought that only gain level I can change on the DSP front panel :/ But after bringing the signal to more or less flat – there was a big big big smile on my face, the whole system sounds like it should be – the pure reference. The mids, the kicks, the gentle sub in the shadow….. achhh. But the next day everything was like before – almost no mids and lots of distortions in the sub freq. Moreover, I had to set on the director sub level almost to the max, increased the volume to the max for 5-7 second and after that the sub and mids frequencies were started to play. Then I started to seeking out what’s the problem and the results are written above.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
The perfect solution? OPTICAL CONNECTION!

BUT :D:D:D

The whole VW system is based on a MOST 150. It’s an encrypted interface. Almost year ago I wrote to the Mobridge company if they plan to release MOST 150 interface. They wrote me back that it’s difficult problem and the whole operations will cost about 500 000 $. For them is uneconomical expense. Also Audiotec Fisher wrote me similar answer, they say “maybe”. For now

I see that the only MOST 150 interface allowing get digital output from the VW HU is NAV-TV ZEN V. It costs 749$ - in my opinion it’s so much overpriced. You get an interface and also 12 channel DSP. I don’t know what DAC is inside, I think it’s not a good one if they recommend connect their interface to another DSP  The digital output is “by them” 24bit/ 48kHz, the frequency response (also in analog) 18 Hz – 24 kHz. If the digital may be correct, but analog? I’ve got a lack under 56 HZ in my unit. SO HOW analog 18-56 Hz is possible by them interface? Magic?

Second option is to create a custom digital output from the VW HU. I sought advice in my country form a man who collaborated with FOCAL as designer of their unreleased DSP, winner of European Car audio awards, owner of a car-audio equipment repair / workshop, in short in our community – GENIUS. He made a lot of optical outs from aftermarket Alpine/Kenwood/Clarion etc. units and of course from factory ones. That’s what he said:
  • Just because the VW HU accepts the FLAC and other loosely files does not mean that it outputs it. 
  • If he manage to get out optical signal ( that’s not sure it will be minimum 16/44), there can be digital noise when the music is not playing. I can compare to the “noise gate” – everyone who plays electric guitar know what I mean. In fabrical units the “noise gate” is located after the part responsible to convert digital to analog. When we want to get out the signal from the VW HU, we get out the signal before the noise gate. And of course noise gate is designed to works with analog only.
Everything is possible, but the costs.
In my country getting the optical out from the aftermarket unit is about 100 $ because in an easy procedure, in VW HU the cost started from the 300 $ + due to unpredictable compilations. And in the end it can be output without minimum 16/44 :/

It’s possible to do, the Russian did it

🎵 I²S to S/PDIF transmitter (V1.1) — DRIVE2
🎵 I²S to S/PDIF transmitter (V2.0) — DRIVE2

When you check this guy Youtube channel you can see similar (Skoda) Hu is working with his toslink output, but he doesn’t show how the HU reacts when the music is stopped (noises?) I don’t speak Russian to translate it fluently, so I don’t know what exactly is the output quality and the price.

Third option is an airport express converted to USB power supply. It has digital output (16/44). It’s make a wifi in your car, you stream a lossless music to it directly via Airplay. Disadvantages – it starts about 50s, and if you have got Iphone connected to HU via carplay (view of Music app/ Tidal etc. on HU and of course steering wheel buttons works) and you switch on phone to “airplay” you cannot see what’s playing on a VW HU and cannot control the phone by a car interface.

Fourth option

Buy Audison Bit Play or similar and android interface
. This allows you to stream music by optical output form Audison to DSP and control everything by the android app. I don’t know if android video interface works with a steering wheels buttons.

Fifth option

Buy an external DAP player (Ibasso, Fioo etc.) and connect it to the DSP by COAX. You should buy the cheapest dap because you will use it only as a transport, the DSP DAC will do the job.

Sixth option (my option  )

Today I ordered Helix USB Extension Card for my DSP. I will connect my Iphone directly to the DSP by USB cable. It’s 192kHz/32 bit. My processor supports less, but I can always move an extension card to another better helix/brax DSP or sold it without difficulties. Disadvantage is that the USB cable cannot charge your phone (you have to use Apple Camera Connection Kit 3). It will cost 150 $ + Apple adapter and USB cable. Iphone is much faster than a DAP player.

If somebody have some informations about getting a digital output from VAG group MOST 150 interface please share.

Sorry for mistakes in writing, english is not my first language.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,255 Posts
Check with mObridge again...

I know they just developed a MOST 150 unit for Mercedes.
I suspect it will also work with VW (just software)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Already installed an USB Helix extension card - so fuc...g amazing, don’t even think about quality from high level output.


Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk Pro
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Many thanks podwodnykot.

A lot of detailed information there which is great.

Looks like the best option for me is to stay with usb audio and the urc.3 or director for control. Just Need to find somewhere ergonomically acceptable to put it.

Thanks again,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
I mounted my director here, it fits without modifications and looks like OEM.
IMG_0080.JPG


Also i noticed that I can control volume level by iphone when using HEC extension card. Today I,m going to order some iphone dash mount an a bluetooth remote control, something like these:
261980

261981

261982
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I had the first BT volume controller in your list and it worked sort of ok.

One issue for me was the ipod touch I use for music doesn't have too many steps between volume adjustments so I could never get it to the right volume level, and it fell to bits after 2 months, so I went back to the URC.3

A lot of food for thought in this thread now though, so thank you all for that :D
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top