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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi, I've posted the following in some of the VW forums and am hoping an electronics expert can help me out.. My apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but I haven't seen anything (spent the last couple of weeks searching and troubleshooting).

I'm really happy with the factory Dynaudio system in my VW R36 (B6 Passat), that I retrofitted several years ago, except it was missing a little low-end bass... I finally upgraded the OEM system, but am having some odd issues with the factory Dynaudio (Lear 3C0 035 456 J) amp rejecting input signals unless I provide a direct signal from the Front-Left channel...

Here's a diagram of my system for reference:
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The aftermarket (Helix) DSP is added between the RNS510 head unit and the factory amp. The design allows the DSP to create the new sub channel(s) from an untouched signal and also apply frequency filtering and time delays to the existing signals before the Dynaudio amp/dsp applies it's own passat-specific tuning. The Helix DSP pre-processing is meant to bring the sub 'forward' more (by delaying the existing signals) and allows the sub to take over the lower frequencies - so I can push the bass harder without bottoming out the factory speakers.

For some reason, the Dynaudio amp only accepts the signal if the Front-Left speaker input is connected directly to the RNS510 head unit either via a joiner (RCA F-F) or y-split (RCA 1M-2F)...

I've used multimeters to test the head unit and dsp output voltages and to ensure the connections on my (custom) wiring harness go to the right pinouts in both quadlocks plugs (also tested the harness by bypassing the DSP altogether). The Helix DSP software is showing input signals and outputs to the sub amp fine... I even resorted to using headphones via an RCA adapter to listen to the input/output signals.

Everything tests fine, accept for the Dynaudio amp rejecting the DSP signal if the Front-Left signal isn't connected directly to the amp. It seems a though there's some magical signal being sent to the Dynaudio amp from the RNS510 head unit that is being filtered out by the Helix DSP...

Here's a graphical summary of what the Dynaudio amp accepts/rejects:
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Does anyone have any knowledge/experience with this and ideally know how to get it working?
 

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What's the impedance of the DSP high level input? Often they're really high to minimise the current drop across the input, but so high that the amp sees the channel as unconnected and shuts the channel down.

One option would be a high wattage resistor to create a dummy load of a low enough impedance.
 

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Ok....so.....maybe I missed something....but the whole point of the helix input side is to take the signal from the amp and undo what is done and eq to your taste. By doing all the processing then running it back through the factory amp....I've never even heard of or seen this done.
Put the helix after the factory amp.
Or I'm an idiot and some can explain the logic here.
If not....







Troll....and I take it all back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
What's the impedance of the DSP high level input? Often they're really high to minimise the current drop across the input, but so high that the amp sees the channel as unconnected and shuts the channel down.

One option would be a high wattage resistor to create a dummy load of a low enough impedance.
Thanks for the tip =)

I measured the signal from the head unit and it shows ~11Ω, where the signal from the DSP is ~46.6 kΩ (IIRC 50kΩ is somewhat standard).

So, do I need to wire a ?11Ω? resistor between the two terminals of the DSP, or to earth? I'm thinking that I'll solder up some sort of RCA extender that I can I can simply plug inline.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ok....so.....maybe I missed something....but the whole point of the helix input side is to take the signal from the amp and undo what is done and eq to your taste. By doing all the processing then running it back through the factory amp....I've never even heard of or seen this done.
Put the helix after the factory amp.
Or I'm an idiot and some can explain the logic here.
If not....







Troll....and I take it all back.
No worries, the VW Dynaudio amp has an integrated DSP that is factory tuned to the Passat interior/speakers (10 channel, 600W).

It actually sounds really good (for OEM), I just want to add the sub channel and be able to filter/delay the signals going into the factory system.
 

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No worries, the VW Dynaudio amp has an integrated DSP that is factory tuned to the Passat interior/speakers (10 channel, 600W).

It actually sounds really good (for OEM), I just want to add the sub channel and be able to filter/delay the signals going into the factory system.
Right....well...even though I don't agree with it...
I'm gonna help you. The factory amp is either looking for a specific amount of DC current or a certain amount of resistance or both.
If you can measure the DC voltage from the factory hu left channel that would verify.
If there is no DC current or weird resistance reading then it does have a magic signal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Right....well...even though I don't agree with it...
I'm gonna help you. The factory amp is either looking for a specific amount of DC current or a certain amount of resistance or both.
If you can measure the DC voltage from the factory hu left channel that would verify.
If there is no DC current or weird resistance reading then it does have a magic signal.
Thanks, I really appreciate it.

I didn't detect any DC voltage (though I'm no expert), but the resistance from the factory Head Unit output is only ~11Ω, where the DSP output is ~46.6kΩ.

The RNS510 HU is coded to output low-level (RCA) "Dynaudio" signal.

Is there a way for me to drop the impedence coming out of the DSP?
 

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No. If you want to keep all 10 drivers....I mean I don't think I can add anything positive to your situation.
So....this is redundant. Your processing to process. Get rid of the dyn amp. Run the 3 way up front. And a pair of midrange in the rear. Find a guy who can actually tune the helix for you and then enjoy. 😉
More speakers in a car is hardly ever a good thing.
Alpine makes a 16 channel processor that would allow you to keep all the channels.
But what you have going on.....I have never seen someone do or even want to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
No. If you want to keep all 10 drivers....I mean I don't think I can add anything positive to your situation.
So....this is redundant. Your processing to process. Get rid of the dyn amp. Run the 3 way up front. And a pair of midrange in the rear. Find a guy who can actually tune the helix for you and then enjoy. 😉
More speakers in a car is hardly ever a good thing.
Alpine makes a 16 channel processor that would allow you to keep all the channels.
But what you have going on.....I have never seen someone do or even want to.
Ok, thanks for the advice.

Adiotec Fischer (Helix) makes a 12 channel DSP amp, but that's another $2.5-3K to change something I'm already happy with.

I spoke with my Dad (retired electrician) and he thinks I may be able to wire up a resistor is parallel across the DSP output to lower the impedance.

I'll do some more measurements/research first to make sure that won't hurt anything, or cause the amp to stay on and flatten the battery.
 

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I wasn't using attention before, it's the amp input not liking the lack of factory HU present.

Hmmmm no idea, impedance is still probably good place to start.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I wasn't using attention before, it's the amp input not liking the lack of factory HU present.

Hmmmm no idea, impedance is still probably good place to start.
Yeah, the factory HU is still there, but not directly connected to the amp - so correct, the amp isn't seeing the HU.

I think I'll try matching the HU impedance coming out of the DSP first - I've bought some male RCA plugs, RCA splitters (2F, 1M) and a variety of 10-12Ω resistors from 0.5-10W (metal film, carbon and wire wound). I'm planning to solder a resistor across one of the spare RCA plugs and then plug that into one of the female RCA splitter plugs coming out of the DSP (connecting the amp to the other female splitter plug).

The guy at the electronics store said 0.5W would be plenty for RCAs, but I think I'll use 1W - the 5 & 10W wire wound resistors are pretty massive...

Is there any way to calculate the required resistor wattage? (the DSP output is rated at up to 4v)
 

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2015 CC VR6 4moiton Executive, Dynaudio 10 speaker 600watt factory system, JL Audio sub, Alpine amp
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Hello nermal,

Sounds like you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill! I’m currently running the exact same setup as you, Dynaudio 10 speaker “confidence” system with 600watt factory DSP/amplifier and aftermarket subwoofer & mono amplifier, except I have the second (or aftermarket) DSP where it’s intended to run, after the factory amplifier. You are correct in assuming that the factory amplifier is looking for a low-level signal and you’re trying to give it back a high-level signal, but you’re better off collecting the signal from after the factory amplifier and tuning it to the frequency you desire before it goes to the subwoofer amplifier, as is usually the case when integrating a subwoofer into a factory audio system.

These Dynaudio speakers are pretty good for a factory system, and I’m in the process of adding an aftermarket amplifier in order to give them more power to see what they’re really capable of! I most likely will be leaving the factory amplifier hooked up for now to run the rear four channels, or possibly the four tweeters in the vehicle, before I power everything with aftermarket equipment and disconnect the amplifier entirely to have a fully active 10 channels via an aftermarket DSP capable of handling the whole system, with tuning flexibility. I know these speakers can A) handle more power and B) sound better with my own frequency preferences. The system has already opened up and gotten more colorful since adding the subwoofer and turning the bass down on the headunit, and I’m only using an entry level subwoofer and mono amplifier! I can only imagine what your system will sound like with a Helix DSP, P One mono amplifier and Esotar 1200 subwoofer!

If it were me, I would tap the signal from the 8” midbass in the front doors from the amplifier output and send it to the Helix DSP by way of high-level signal. I also would tap the other channels and sum a full-range signal just incase the Helix DSP needs high-level frequencies to power up, just my $.02!

Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hello nermal,

Sounds like you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill! I’m currently running the exact same setup as you, Dynaudio 10 speaker “confidence” system with 600watt factory DSP/amplifier and aftermarket subwoofer & mono amplifier, except I have the second (or aftermarket) DSP where it’s intended to run, after the factory amplifier. You are correct in assuming that the factory amplifier is looking for a low-level signal and you’re trying to give it back a high-level signal, but you’re better off collecting the signal from after the factory amplifier and tuning it to the frequency you desire before it goes to the subwoofer amplifier, as is usually the case when integrating a subwoofer into a factory audio system.

These Dynaudio speakers are pretty good for a factory system, and I’m in the process of adding an aftermarket amplifier in order to give them more power to see what they’re really capable of! I most likely will be leaving the factory amplifier hooked up for now to run the rear four channels, or possibly the four tweeters in the vehicle, before I power everything with aftermarket equipment and disconnect the amplifier entirely to have a fully active 10 channels via an aftermarket DSP capable of handling the whole system, with tuning flexibility. I know these speakers can A) handle more power and B) sound better with my own frequency preferences. The system has already opened up and gotten more colorful since adding the subwoofer and turning the bass down on the headunit, and I’m only using an entry level subwoofer and mono amplifier! I can only imagine what your system will sound like with a Helix DSP, P One mono amplifier and Esotar 1200 subwoofer!

If it were me, I would tap the signal from the 8” midbass in the front doors from the amplifier output and send it to the Helix DSP by way of high-level signal. I also would tap the other channels and sum a full-range signal just incase the Helix DSP needs high-level frequencies to power up, just my $.02!

Good luck!

Yeah, you're probably right! 😅 It sounds really good as it is, I just want that little bit of control over the existing speakers to be able to bring the sub closer and separate the frequencies a little.

I'm currently tapping the low-level (RCA) signal from the RNS-510 before the dynaudio amp, so essentially feeding the Helix DSP a raw/full-spectrum signal.

The factory Dynaudio 'confidence' system sounds good doesn't it? I'd honestly consider buying a set of second hand speakers for my next car if/when that happens... A great way to get a discounted 'Esotec' system - I checked the Esotec specs against our speakers and they are the same (or very similar to) the System 342 (front) and System 222 (rear) components.

I retrofitted mine several years ago and I think the additional sound-deadening and deflector pads made a difference: R36 Dynaudio Retrofit Guide - Page 2

The Dynaudio E1200 sub is amazing too, very tight and controlled with deep low-end - great sensitivity/response. I made a custom carbon-fibre/kevlar enclosure that goes over the spare wheel (fully removable), here are some photos prior to installing the sub - it weighs a tonne though:

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2015 CC VR6 4moiton Executive, Dynaudio 10 speaker 600watt factory system, JL Audio sub, Alpine amp
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That custom box looks great man, the VW logo turned out really well! I have to ask where you got the information for the speakers in our cars, because I’ve been scouring the internet I can’t seem to find anything on the technical specs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That custom box looks great man, the VW logo turned out really well! I have to ask where you got the information for the speakers in our cars, because I’ve been scouring the internet I can’t seem to find anything on the technical specs?
Thanks =) The logo grill was cast out of Q-Cells + fibreglass, using a silicon mould I made from a T2 Kombi badge (1970's IIRC) - used a bunch of pearl and metallic paint powers to achieve the faux brushed metal.

I measured the speaker sizes when doing the retrofit (see the tape measure in the photos): R36 Dynaudio Retrofit Guide . There were also some impedance values listed on the stickers, though VW likes to use weird wiring sometimes (ie. add bass + mid to same plug) and they'll also add resistors/capacitors to achieve desired attributes.

The Esotec specs can be found in the following brochure: https://www.dynaudio.com/media/2510/dyn_automotive_brochure_int_dp.pdf (linked from Esotec audio system - The Esotec automotive loudspeaker line). Based on cone sizes, overall heights and visuals, the front sets appear to contain MD102 (tweeters), MD142 (mids) and MD162 (mid bass), and the rear sets: MD102 (tweeters) and MD152 (mid bass) - which match the System 342 and 222 respectively. They may be customized versions, but seem to be either close cousins, or direct matches based on the research I could gather.
 

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2015 CC VR6 4moiton Executive, Dynaudio 10 speaker 600watt factory system, JL Audio sub, Alpine amp
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That’s interesting because I have a press release that says the fronts are 200mm, 52mm, and 28mm while the rears are 165mm and 20mm! I believe it’s from Dynaudio too! Trouble is the webpage is no longer available and Dynaudio hasn’t responded to my emails! It’s good to know that the impedance is 8ohms though, helps me plan for the amplifiers. I’d love to see what these speakers are capable of with some good equipment running them before I go swapping them out for something that could potentially be worse. Could you do me a solid and send me your pictures of install in raw format so I have a good reference to go by? My email is:

[email protected]

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
That’s interesting because I have a press release that says the fronts are 200mm, 52mm, and 28mm while the rears are 165mm and 20mm! I believe it’s from Dynaudio too! Trouble is the webpage is no longer available and Dynaudio hasn’t responded to my emails! It’s good to know that the impedance is 8ohms though, helps me plan for the amplifiers. I’d love to see what these speakers are capable of with some good equipment running them before I go swapping them out for something that could potentially be worse. Could you do me a solid and send me your pictures of install in raw format so I have a good reference to go by? My email is:

[email protected]

Thanks

I have ~300Mb worth of raw photos from the retrofit (2014). I'll try find a suitable place to upload them to and send you a link (Dropbox maybe?).

Yeah, I doubt Dynaudio is going to give much away on their OEM systems. Probably under NDA too, so don't expect a response anytime soon...

Although there are stickers on the speakers with impedances, I recommend using some multimeters across the amp harness plugs to be sure - who knows what crazy wiring VW may be using. Do you have a pinout for the Dynaudio amp? (If not, I have one on my PC that I can share).

FYI - I measured the sub floor on my R36 sedan and it took 60L of beans to the top of the tire/tub:
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That’s hilarious, packing balls everywhere!😂 I do have a wiring diagram for the amplifier, but thanks anyway! I wasn’t looking for 300MB of pictures, just something that shows more detail of the doors and the backs of the speakers! Also, what kind of fasteners hold on the door inserts? Have you ever had the inserts off completely and been able to snap some pics of the inside of the door cavity? It would be nice to have a plan of action for the Dynomat install.

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
That’s hilarious, packing balls everywhere!😂 I do have a wiring diagram for the amplifier, but thanks anyway! I wasn’t looking for 300MB of pictures, just something that shows more detail of the doors and the backs of the speakers! Also, what kind of fasteners hold on the door inserts? Have you ever had the inserts off completely and been able to snap some pics of the inside of the door cavity? It would be nice to have a plan of action for the Dynomat install.

Thanks!
Ok, I've uploaded the best/clearest photos to:
Yeah... the shop-vac did a great job of slurping them back up... until it filled up and they then compacted up through the hose - after loosening them back out of the hose, it worked well again.

I didn't really take photos of inside the door (where the window mechanisms etc are), but did get some dynamat onto the outer skins (along with diffuser pads) - there's some factory sound deadener there, just had to feel around and shine a flashlight around... If you're really serious, I believe you may be able to remove the outer/painted skin panel (well that's what the salesman said at the dealership ~2008 - but sometimes salespeople tell 'stories').

There is a photo with the door card clips. They are this style (google photo) - you should be able to buy them on ebay:
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