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Hanatsu,

Thanks for posting your build progress- the good (and the bad) that happens along the way. Not too many people can analyze the sound to the level of detail you have shown. Very nice work!

Midbass issues seem to affect many builds. Have you considered using 8" drivers in the front doors? They seem to add the sonic improvements people look for and could yield the measurement results you are after as well. Even the smaller 8" drivers (e.g. Dynaudio MW 172, Morel MW 266) seem to improve the midbass response orders of magnitude beyond even the best 6.5". Could be a fabrication / fit challenge but it looks like you can handle it!

I have read where you used the Scanspeak D3004 6020-00 tweeters. Why don't you use them any more?

Also, about your car's engine failure. Did you check to see if your car insurance comprehensive coverage would pay for it? Here in the US some insurance companies would cover such a repair- your incident is not considered normal "wear and tear". You might be able to claim it even if you already paid for it.
 

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Discussion Starter #162
Hanatsu,

Thanks for posting your build progress- the good (and the bad) that happens along the way. Not too many people can analyze the sound to the level of detail you have shown. Very nice work!

Midbass issues seem to affect many builds. Have you considered using 8" drivers in the front doors? They seem to add the sonic improvements people look for and could yield the measurement results you are after as well. Even the smaller 8" drivers (e.g. Dynaudio MW 172, Morel MW 266) seem to improve the midbass response orders of magnitude beyond even the best 6.5". Could be a fabrication / fit challenge but it looks like you can handle it!

I have read where you used the Scanspeak D3004 6020-00 tweeters. Why don't you use them any more?

Also, about your car's engine failure. Did you check to see if your car insurance comprehensive coverage would pay for it? Here in the US some insurance companies would cover such a repair- your incident is not considered normal "wear and tear". You might be able to claim it even if you already paid for it.
I do use 8" drivers in front doors... or did. Removed them now, will use dual 5,25" drivers instead. Cone area should be about the same as a single 8". I will use a sealed enclosure instead of IB, I believe it will kill the vibration issues.

I used the Scans before when I had a 2-way front. The Scans were great in the 2-3,5kHz area; much better than the XT25 but that area is covered by my midrange drivers now. The XT25's ring radiator design works better than the Scans with the mini waveguide pods I got. The dispersion pattern together with the Vifa's phase plug makes for a unique sound that works very well in my setup. The Vifa got about the same performance if not better in some areas for 1/6th the price (in the range which I use them).

I did have insurance but it didn't cover this unfortunally.

------------

I have done some more work. I'll post some updates tomorrow.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.
 

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I do use 8" drivers in front doors... or did. Removed them now, will use dual 5,25" drivers instead. Cone area should be about the same as a single 8". I will use a sealed enclosure instead of IB, I believe it will kill the vibration issues.

I used the Scans before when I had a 2-way front. The Scans were great in the 2-3,5kHz area; much better than the XT25 but that area is covered by my midrange drivers now. The XT25's ring radiator design works better than the Scans with the mini waveguide pods I got. The dispersion pattern together with the Vifa's phase plug makes for a unique sound that works very well in my setup. The Vifa got about the same performance if not better in some areas for 1/6th the price (in the range which I use them).

I did have insurance but it didn't cover this unfortunally.

------------

I have done some more work. I'll post some updates tomorrow.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.
Just for your info, 4 x 5.25" drivers has the same cone area as a 10.5" driver (5.25 x 2)
So 2 x 5.25" has about the same cone area as a 7" driver (5.25 x 1.33)

I was in the same boat as you. I have 4 Focal 13WS that I wanted to use as midbasses (2 on each side) - but when I compared it to a normal 6.5" driver, it wasn't worth the trouble IMO. Especially since I won't use them much below about 70Hz.
So I'm keeping the 4 mini-subs for another project.

Kelvin
 

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Discussion Starter #164
SEAS L16 RN-SL is a "special" 5,25" driver with a Sd of 104cm², 208cm² would "almost" equate to an 8" driver ;)

This particular driver seems to be a great performer in the lower regions. See Zaph's test of it;

Zaph|Audio

Zaph; This driver is best used in special bass/midbass applications where it's small size and great bass performance can be put use.
 

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SEAS L16 RN-SL is a "special" 5,25" driver with a Sd of 104cm², 208cm² would "almost" equate to an 8" driver ;)

This particular driver seems to be a great performer in the lower regions. See Zaph's test of it;

Zaph|Audio
Interesting little driver :)

High BL, inductance in check, cone a bit heavy but should be put in good use in a sealed enclosure.

Used to be quite expensive, how much is it now?

Kelvin
 

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Got my car back recently. The new engine is great ;)

Did some measurements and simulations using a sealed enclosure with a known anechoic response. Seems like placing the sub 50cm to the right is yields better results than than having it to the left. I wonder how the difference can be that big in decay plots... (there's some weird crap at 50Hz in all measurements, it's noise from the mic preamp, replacing that preamp soon... tired of it)

Here's box simulations;


http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/Hanatsu2/media/spl1w_zps439262cb.png[/IMG
I recognize that cabin gain from my BMW E39 estate. It looks almost identical.

I use two Seas CA18RNX (6" woofers) in each door in ~9-10L sealed enclosures (for two woofers). They produce a lot of midbass. For sound quality I would consider going with only one in each door. Or use bigger enclosures. I think the distortion is a bit high in mine. Maybe your smaller cones and bigger enclosures will do better.
 

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I do use 8" drivers in front doors... or did. Removed them now, will use dual 5,25" drivers instead. Cone area should be about the same as a single 8". I will use a sealed enclosure instead of IB, I believe it will kill the vibration issues.

I used the Scans before when I had a 2-way front. The Scans were great in the 2-3,5kHz area; much better than the XT25 but that area is covered by my midrange drivers now. The XT25's ring radiator design works better than the Scans with the mini waveguide pods I got. The dispersion pattern together with the Vifa's phase plug makes for a unique sound that works very well in my setup. The Vifa got about the same performance if not better in some areas for 1/6th the price (in the range which I use them).

I did have insurance but it didn't cover this unfortunally.

------------

I have done some more work. I'll post some updates tomorrow.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.
thanks for the response.

don't you also have to consider xmax of the drivers- in other words an 8" driver would (usually) have a higher xmax than the 5.25.

while on paper (2) 5.25" drivers should deliver decent midbass seemingly equivalent to an 8" driver the reality- that is how it actually sounds- could be different.

are you interested more in how it sounds or an ultra flat frequency response curve for competition purposes?
 

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Discussion Starter #171
thanks for the response.

don't you also have to consider xmax of the drivers- in other words an 8" driver would (usually) have a higher xmax than the 5.25.

while on paper (2) 5.25" drivers should deliver decent midbass seemingly equivalent to an 8" driver the reality- that is how it actually sounds- could be different.

are you interested more in how it sounds or an ultra flat frequency response curve for competition purposes?
The 5,25" from Seas have 12mm Xmax p-p. The DLS iri8i have 11mm Xmax. These 5'25 drivers are a little special though. I compete but I don't tune for flat, I usually turn down the sub and midbass but the rest of the spectrum remains the same (at competition evaluations). I use a downwards tilt from 1-1,5kHz --> 20kHz with about 3-4dB/oct. Got pretty high scores on the last competition so the judge seemed to like it ;)

I've done lots of gardening, repainted the garage and I'm in the middle of a PADI open diving course so I've been a little busy. Done some work on my enclosure but I forgot to bring the camera, I'll upload them tomorrow xD

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.
 

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OK, seems like you have found a nice niche solution, looking forward to seeing the enclosures- no doubt they will sound excellent! I saw some build thread where the guy iso-mounted the enclosure to the door to eliminate energy transfer.

Thought about front door enclosures for a while but any proper volume would require complete surgery of the bottom half of the door panel as well as additional foot well intrusion. Maybe some day, the sound is probably worth the effort.
oh, BTW didn't you mention that high end amps are not worth the investment- yet you're running DLS ultimates ? Nice!
 

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Discussion Starter #173
oh, BTW didn't you mention that high end amps are not worth the investment- yet you're running DLS ultimates ? Nice!
Never said that high end amps are not worth the investment. In my opinion, the vast majority of issues people have with tonality, focus, "control" or whatever in cars are not related to bad sounding amps (if they have enough power that is...). Tuning (DSP power)/Install and great speakers do the most to the sound. Amps do behave different when being overdriven, seen some nasty clipping as soon as the amp hits the the maximum rail voltage on some amps, producing high amounts of tall order distortion products. Also, some amps doesn't behave very well with reactive loads/steep impedance phase changes etc. The more expensive amps usually have better resale value, better longevity, better QC (less issues), lower noise floor etc. Oh and they usually look better as well ^^. In the long run they ain't necessarily that more expensive than a cheap amp (if they last for 20 years...). In the same period you may have bought and whacked 4-5 cheaper amps, idk. I certainly don't want stuff to break down after a few years in a custom made install, having to change the entire layout if the amp's not available any more or if it's unrepairable (or something). To be honest, the build quality is probably the major reason why I consider buying better equipment. It would be preposterous to say that all amps are mysteriously the same in all aspects, but some people who rant about how much the amp changed the overall tonality, that you don't need EQ with good amps etc are equally preposterous imo. You don't need less EQ or whatever because you have "better" amps, the EQ is needed to compensate for the crappy environment, last time I checked an amp won't 'improve' that lol.

Finally, don't underestimate the expectancy bias... most people listen to systems with predetermined notions how it will sound based on the equipment. Happens all the time. Haven't you seen that "audiophile banana" thread? Sorry for the long rant xD

- - -

Btw.. I'm changing amps next month to a pair of ETON PA800. I want a more efficient design where I can run the entire system from 2x 4ch amps. Unfortunately, the DLS A4 amps are not sold anymore. Two of those ETON amps costs just as much as one DLS A4 amp here, so I'll keep the DLS amps for some other project. We'll see ^^
 

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Discussion Starter #174
Made a new system layout (for the main system). Planning one step ahead. I did say I wasn't changing my install again but... ah whatever. Here's how the system will be for the upcoming year, I will make a custom box with a built-in miniDSP and a mini amp for rear ambiance and the "anti-modal" speakers... probably xD

 

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Discussion Starter #175
I ordered new 3" drivers as well. I have run extensive tests on my Fountek drivers and found that they have issues in the 200-250Hz area, as well as the 3,2kHz+ area. I will post a comparison test, as soon as I have the time to test the ETON drivers.

(and yep, forgot to bring the camera today again - I'll update my subwoofer build tomorrow, probably - I should say xD
 

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Days without pictures.... you're torturing us!

P.S. Are both the new E"ton and the Seas you're using a metal cone design?
I tend to favour old fashioned paper designs myself... but then again, I also
use shallow slopes and need the better behaved breakup nodes...
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design2.html
 

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Discussion Starter #177
Days without pictures.... you're torturing us!

P.S. Are both the new E"ton and the Seas you're using a metal cone design?
I tend to favour old fashioned paper designs myself... but then again, I also
use shallow slopes and need the better behaved breakup nodes...
The Art of Speaker Design, Part II
Interesting site. Normally paper cones tend to sound more pleasing in the midrange and highs. The ETON use a composite ceramic cone, just like Accuton. Tends to be slightly different from the "metal sound". Only heard a few ceramic drivers but I liked the way the Accuton drivers sounded. The Seas are metal cones, with a typical breakup node in the upper midrange. Not using them that high.

If I'd use shallow slopes then I'd be careful with metal cones aswell. I've used 24dB/oct L-R acoustical filters so far in my setup ;)

Little Princess - March 2013 - Loudspeakermagazine 2013 | Loudspeakerbuilding

http://www.etongmbh.de/uploads/tx_pbproducts/3_400_A8_25MG_01.pdf

As seen by the manual, the breakup node ain't that harsh and the offaxis dispersion seems pretty controlled to 10kHz.

Now there a thunderstorm outside, better shut down the computer lol...
 

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That's a write-up from Lynn Olsen, I've been following his build on diyaudio.com, he's working on some new speakers using vintage Altec woofers and a horn.
He makes some valid observations on loudspeaker development and has been in the business for a while. My neighbour had vintage Altec Lansing speakers and I must say, they are something else. Most noticeably in the midrange.
The tonality and clear midrange was excellent. And the dynamics were awesome. If he played music at night I'd swear there was a live event next door :D.

Thanks for the clarification on the material choice. Those Eton's are intriguing! Never heard Accuton but they always get rave reviews so these should have potential.
And you have a wide range where you could cross over to the Vifa's. Maybe try shallow slopes between mid and tweet? (lol)
 

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Discussion Starter #179
Oh the old Altec's are indeed special. We'll see how the Eton's compare against my Fountek's. If the Eton's have better performance above 3,2kHz I might use shallower slopes ;)

The XT25 can be used slightly lower than I have been using them so I think a 3,2kHz/12dB or a 6,3kHz/6dB will be fine (if I notch them around 900Hz).

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.
 

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Oh the old Altec's are indeed special. We'll see how the Eton's compare against my Fountek's. If the Eton's have better performance above 3,2kHz I might use shallower slopes ;)

The XT25 can be used slightly lower than I have been using them so I think a 3,2kHz/12dB or a 6,3kHz/6dB will be fine (if I notch them around 900Hz).

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.
Do you use a cap as tweeter protection? If you do you can use a 7 ohm resistor parallel to the tweet to combat the fs peak...
That's what I have to make the shallow slopes possible.
 
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