[JimmyDee]

Also, I assume you're going to fit the tweeters into the factory locations as well.
No judgement from me... heck, I've built all of my systems into OEM locations!

I'd be looking at a 5.25" set of these:

Elate Carbon 2-Way - Morel

The Elate Carbon by Morel features most of its Pro sibling's high-end componentry. The 2-way systems are designed for the ultimate performance but with a discreet tweeter.

www.morelhifi.com

Or, if you can somehow squeeze a 6.5" in that location, then I'd recommend these:

GB60 6" (165MM) AUDIOPHILE GRADE AUTOMOTIVE LOUDSPEAKER - Audiofrog

Designed to be used in two- or three-way systems, the GB60 can be used in small enclosures or in infinite baffle applications. High power handling, low distortion and 9mm of linear one-way excursion

www.audiofrog.com

GB15 1 1/2" (38 MM) AUDIOPHILE GRADE AUTOMOTIVE TWEETER - Audiofrog

Previous Next OVERVIEW FEATURES TECHNICAL DETAILS DOWNLOADS OVERVIEW Designed primarily for use with the GB60 as the ultimate 2-way system for kick panel or door installation, the GB15 1-1/2” tweeter provides low distortion and high frequency extension not common in other large tweeters. With...

www.audiofrog.com

 

[daloudin]

Solid point. Only one speaker works in the car lol, that's why I wanted to start with the speakers. At least I can listen to some music while I get the rest of the stuff.

I thought you meant fabricating new kick panels that have the speakers protruding out. That's obvious. I wouldn't mind mounting them flush, but there's zero space behind the panels. Packed to the brim with layers of foam and MLV.

Yes that's why I joined. To get help haha. Yep it is a quiet car! I've always wanted to build a high end system, but never had the right car, or never kept a car long enough. I don't think I'll ever sell this car, and its quiet, so why not!

While the idea that the midrange is arguably the most important component when listening to music the midbass is by far the hardest to reproduce in a car. The confines of a car (dimensionally) are horrible acoustically for these frequencies plus road and wind noise. Then if you look at the spectral power density in music there's more energy from 20-200 than there is in 200-20,000 that's why it is not uncommon to have 10x more wattage (1kW vs 100W) in the bass amp vs the rest of the Soundstage.

All of that to say that figuring out the region from 80-300 is usually the most critical in designing a system. IF you can put 8" MB drivers under the seats or in kick panel pods (protruding or flush) then those are commonly accepted remedies but trying to run a sub up to 200-300 trunk mounted will cause all kinds of phase and cancelation problems that are not easy to overcome.

Take a look at these: VIRTUS NANO CARBON - Morel

For mounting in the kicks and then using a coaxial Carbon in the doors or even the 3 way Nano with an adapter plate for the midrange in the door.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[seafish]

Dynaudio MW152 fits the bill if they’ll fit the space

 

[Nisaja]

I'm not sure about the E38, but for the E39 that share the same speaker placement and construction, they make adapter plates to fit 6,5" behind the stock door panel. Sure the grill size is a bit restrictive then, but maybe it's a better compromise to have a 6.5" in the door that could output decent midbass, than a 4-5" driver that won't reach down to integrate with a subwoofer at a reasonable crossover frequency.

But alternatively you could get underseat subs and use them for midbass rather than subwoofers, and have a proper subwoofer in the back.

https://www.carelectronicsnottingham.co.uk/focal-isub-twin-sub-powerful-compact-passive-underseat-car-subwoofer-2x-100w-rms

That’s a very good point.

I looked into that. Sadly I can only fit 6.5s at the front. Not the rear. The speaker box is too small. Getting a different pair for the rear would complicate things.

I checked the Focals. Even they go up to only 150hz. I don’t mind keeping some midrange underseat subs though

This is going to sound like garbage... sorry to be blunt, but it's true.

I'm a huge Dynaudio fanboy. I even have the Esotar 430's.
They're a fantastic midrange (one of the best)... but the gap between 200Hz and your sub would be too much to overcome.
You simply will not get a subwoofer to play up to 200Hz, and sound good doing it.

Although I'd recommend the E430 in almost every midrange application... I wouldn't for what you're trying to do.
You need something that will comfortably play down to (at minimum) 100Hz.
You should be looking for a 5.25" driver, if your intention is to mount them in the factory door location.
Or, as @haakono mentioned above; if you can squeeze a 6.5" in there, with an adapter... that would be better.

See, comments like these are what makes me want to get the 430s lol. I’d love to get some 5.25 Dynaudios but the only speaker I could find was the 15W75, and they’re used. Any idea how they sound compared to these? Couldn’t find any reviews.

 

[Nisaja]

Also, I assume you're going to fit the tweeters into the factory locations as well.
No judgement from me... heck, I've built all of my systems into OEM locations!

I'd be looking at a 5.25" set of these:

Elate Carbon 2-Way - Morel

The Elate Carbon by Morel features most of its Pro sibling's high-end componentry. The 2-way systems are designed for the ultimate performance but with a discreet tweeter.

www.morelhifi.com

Or, if you can somehow squeeze a 6.5" in that location, then I'd recommend these:

GB60 6" (165MM) AUDIOPHILE GRADE AUTOMOTIVE LOUDSPEAKER - Audiofrog

Designed to be used in two- or three-way systems, the GB60 can be used in small enclosures or in infinite baffle applications. High power handling, low distortion and 9mm of linear one-way excursion

www.audiofrog.com

GB15 1 1/2" (38 MM) AUDIOPHILE GRADE AUTOMOTIVE TWEETER - Audiofrog

Previous Next OVERVIEW FEATURES TECHNICAL DETAILS DOWNLOADS OVERVIEW Designed primarily for use with the GB60 as the ultimate 2-way system for kick panel or door installation, the GB15 1-1/2” tweeter provides low distortion and high frequency extension not common in other large tweeters. With...

www.audiofrog.com

Yes I will be installing the tweeters in the factory location.

Elate Carbons look sweet! Size is perfect. They're two way too, so I can forget about looking for tweeters.

I'm not sure about fitting 6.5s in there. I should be able to get them to fit in the front doors, but not in the rear doors. At least that's what I've read.

While the idea that the midrange is arguably the most important component when listening to music the midbass is by far the hardest to reproduce in a car. The confines of a car (dimensionally) are horrible acoustically for these frequencies plus road and wind noise. Then if you look at the spectral power density in music there's more energy from 20-200 than there is in 200-20,000 that's why it is not uncommon to have 10x more wattage (1kW vs 100W) in the bass amp vs the rest of the Soundstage.

All of that to say that figuring out the region from 80-300 is usually the most critical in designing a system. IF you can put 8" MB drivers under the seats or in kick panel pods (protruding or flush) then those are commonly accepted remedies but trying to run a sub up to 200-300 trunk mounted will cause all kinds of phase and cancelation problems that are not easy to overcome.

Take a look at these: VIRTUS NANO CARBON - Morel

For mounting in the kicks and then using a coaxial Carbon in the doors or even the 3 way Nano with an adapter plate for the midrange in the door.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Thank you. Very insightful info. I appreciate it! Yes I know that mid bass is important. I think it's best to just get some speakers that can produce mid bass than get dedicated mid bass speakers. Would make things a lot easier.

Those speakers are slightly too large. I could mount them up front, but not in the rear doors. And the speaker grills are for 5.25 speakers. Might cause issues there. 5.25 or less is ideal.

Dynaudio MW152 fits the bill if they’ll fit the space

I love these! Thats the question. Will they fit? They're relatively cheap too, so its great if they do.

 

[gijoe]

What are you doing for DSP? It doesn't matter what speakers you choose, you will never beat those high-end stereo setups unless you get a good DSP, and tune it well. There's no chance running passive 5.25" components will compete.

 

[seafish]

Sometimes a deeper and slightly larger speaker can be made to for by adding a very simple to make speaker baffle

 

[Nisaja]

What are you doing for DSP? It doesn't matter what speakers you choose, you will never beat those high-end stereo setups unless you get a good DSP, and tune it well. There's no chance running passive 5.25" components will compete.

Please don't flame me I want to maintain the stock look, so I was forced to go android. Bought a higher end one with a 30 band DSP and time alignment.

Sometimes a deeper and slightly larger speaker can be made to for by adding a very simple to make speaker baffle

True. This can be easily made as labor is super cheap where I live. Need to figure out the speakers first.

 

[daloudin]

Why the concern over front to rear doors? Put 6.5 in the front and 5.25 with a different HP in the rear. Most will suggest that the rears be attenuated to rear fill anyway.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[daloudin]

Yes I will be installing the tweeters in the factory location.

Elate Carbons look sweet! Size is perfect. They're two way too, so I can forget about looking for tweeters.

I'm not sure about fitting 6.5s in there. I should be able to get them to fit in the front doors, but not in the rear doors. At least that's what I've read.



Thank you. Very insightful info. I appreciate it! Yes I know that mid bass is important. I think it's best to just get some speakers that can produce mid bass than get dedicated mid bass speakers. Would make things a lot easier.

Those speakers are slightly too large. I could mount them up front, but not in the rear doors. And the speaker grills are for 5.25 speakers. Might cause issues there. 5.25 or less is ideal.


I love these! Thats the question. Will they fit? They're relatively cheap too, so its great if they do.

Meant for the Nano Carbon MB to go in the kicks flush mount. They only need 17mm of mounting depth.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[gijoe]

Please don't flame me I want to maintain the stock look, so I was forced to go android. Bought a higher end one with a 30 band DSP and time alignment.



True. This can be easily made as labor is super cheap where I live. Need to figure out the speakers first.

An Android head unit, or a real DSP? I'm running an Android head unit right now, there's a lot to like, but the DSP isn't nearly powerful enough to meet the goals you set for beating out the high end OEM systems that you mentioned.

This is one reason why it's so important to plan the system fully instead of looking for the "most accurate" speakers available. If you want to compete with a great high end OEM system (I cannot confirm how good the ones you mentioned are) you need a full plan, great install and execution, and a very good tune otherwise expensive speakers won't matter.

 

[Nisaja]

Why the concern over front to rear doors? Put 6.5 in the front and 5.25 with a different HP in the rear. Most will suggest that the rears be attenuated to rear fill anyway.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

True, but the DSP I have does not have individual speaker adjustments, so I thought keeping the mids the same brand should not give me any sound signature issues.

Meant for the Nano Carbon MB to go in the kicks flush mount. They only need 17mm of mounting depth.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Oh wow! I had no idea they were that slim! In that case, yes! I should be able to mount them in the kicks.

An Android head unit, or a real DSP? I'm running an Android head unit right now, there's a lot to like, but the DSP isn't nearly powerful enough to meet the goals you set for beating out the high end OEM systems that you mentioned.

This is one reason why it's so important to plan the system fully instead of looking for the "most accurate" speakers available. If you want to compete with a great high end OEM system (I cannot confirm how good the ones you mentioned are) you need a full plan, great install and execution, and a very good tune otherwise expensive speakers won't matter.

It's an android head unit with a built in DSP. Good point. I can always add a dedicated DSP later if this doesn't work. Thank you for the input.

 

[420tabbycat]

What if the stock locations and available room in those locations aren’t capable of besting “high end” systems that were likely designed around proper sound reproduction? Is it possible that no speakers, no matter how amazing can achieve these goals in the stock layout of this car? To just shake off dumdums authoritative advice to focus on the most difficult task of midbass in pursuit of latter puzzle pieces seems short sighted.

These cornerstone members see sound advice disregarded weekly and the results are generally wasted time, money, or goals not achieved. Perhaps a crossroad will be reached where the decision has to be made to either maintain the stock locations and not achieve said goals or approach this from a sound reproduction standpoint and beat some Rovers. Perhaps at this crossroad, the extremely expensive midrange drivers that just had to be bought first will show up in the classifieds here. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[JimmyDee]

@Nisaja you are beginning to get a taste of the 'rabbit-hole' we've all fallen into...

Seems simple enough... "I'll just get a decent head unit, an amp, and a set of the best quality speakers I can find".

• Then you realize the head unit doesn't cut it, because it has weak DSP options and not enough output channels.
• Then the 4-channel amp isn't good enough, because you want to power all your speakers active (which also means you need a separate multi-channel DSP).
• Then the high-end 5.25" speakers you bought aren't hitting the lows you were expecting... and you start thinking about putting a shallow 8" midbass under the seat.

Welcome to DIYMA.

 

[420tabbycat]

What exactly do the Range Rover and Bentley sound systems do so well? Noteworthy clarity, abnormally linear frequency response, defined image, all of the above? How did these cars achieve this? What exactly are these goals? “To sound good”? What is good sound? How do we achieve good sound in the automobile environment?

 

[Nisaja]

What if the stock locations and available room in those locations aren’t capable of besting “high end” systems that were likely designed around proper sound reproduction? Is it possible that no speakers, no matter how amazing can achieve these goals in the stock layout of this car? To just shake off dumdums authoritative advice to focus on the most difficult task of midbass in pursuit of latter puzzle pieces seems short sighted.



These cornerstone members see sound advice disregarded weekly and the results are generally wasted time, money, or goals not achieved. Perhaps a crossroad will be reached where the decision has to be made to either maintain the stock locations and not achieve said goals or approach this from a sound reproduction standpoint and beat some Rovers. Perhaps at this crossroad, the extremely expensive midrange drivers that just had to be bought first will show up in the classifieds here. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I want to keep the stock locations because I don’t want to modify the panels. I don’t mind removing the stock speaker boxes and using different ones, but I don’t want to alter the door panels.

I’m not shaking off dumdums midbass advice. In fact, I’m seriously considering adding underseat midbass subs. That is only if I don’t use 5.25s in the doors.

@Nisaja you are beginning to get a taste of the 'rabbit-hole' we've all fallen into...



Seems simple enough... "I'll just get a decent head unit, an amp, and a set of the best quality speakers I can find".

• Then you realize the head unit doesn't cut it, because it has weak DSP options and not enough output channels.
• Then the 4-channel amp isn't good enough, because you want to power all your speakers active (which also means you need a separate multi-channel DSP).
• Then the high-end 5.25" speakers you bought aren't hitting the lows you were expecting... and you start thinking about putting a shallow 8" midbass under the seat.

Welcome to DIYMA.

Haha very true. Well, I knew this would happen. You guys have a fair point. The stock DSP is weak. Spent all night researching car DSPs and decided to settle on the Helix DSP Ultra.

I will decide on the amps once I decide on the speakers.

I thought I won’t need underseat midbass speakers if I get 5.25s that can play low enough. If they can’t, I might as well get the Dynaudio 430s and get underseat midbass speakers.

What exactly do the Range Rover and Bentley sound systems do so well? Noteworthy clarity, abnormally linear frequency response, defined image, all of the above? How did these cars achieve this? What exactly are these goals? “To sound good”? What is good sound? How do we achieve good sound in the automobile environment?

Those systems can do a bit of everything. To me, “sounding good” means a faithful reproduction of music. Completely flat. Like a recording studio. That’s what I want this system to do.

 

[Nisaja]

Alright boys. You guys have made me realize that the stock system does not have individual speaker EQ adjustments, and wouldn’t really help me to achieve my goal, so I’ve decided to get a Helix DSP Ultra. We’re going all out!

The question still remains for speakers. I wanted to get 5.25s and cover the mids and midbass with one speaker. Some of y’all are saying that I’ll still need a dedicated midbass driver.

Can we get a verdict?

2 way with 5.25s
3 way with underseat midbass

 

[ItsonlyaHONDA]

If your getting the Helix DSP ultra there is no reason you should not go 3 way.

 

[Nisaja]

If your getting the Helix DSP ultra there is no reason you should not go 3 way.

Let’s do it then!
Can we decide on the midrange speakers? So far we have


Morel Elate Carbon 52
Morel Elate Carbon MW5
Micro precision 5 series
Dynaudio Esotar 430

Anything else?

 

[420tabbycat]

Can we decide on the midrange speakers? So far we have

🤦🏻

I don’t have any experience with high tier speakers as I’m finding the medium priced value leaders gets me everything I need. My focus on the forum has been the thresholds of sound perception and the integrity of the installation. The sound perception thing being tolerable levels of distortion, frequencies and the way our ears use them to “assemble” the desired listing experience, and at what frequencies does the stage pull down, or subwoofers pull the stage back, ect.

Integrity of the install includes the obvious non resonant enclosures and solid mounting for said enclosures but there’s much more here. Integrity of the install also includes things like testing measuring any and all suitable speaker locations for response anomalies. There’s deeper levels involved in achieving a nice flat response in the car. Reflections and size of the cabin have already been mentioned, as have midbass and subwoofers.

This is only what I’d do at my current level of understanding, others will have different approaches. I’d find a 2”-3” fullrange speaker driver with an extremely wide response, preferably one that performs in a very small sealed enclosure, like a pvc cap. I would take this and measure it in every single possible location for every possible speaker driver in the finished system. The kicks, the doors, the sails, the dash, the trunk, under the seats, everywhere you’d be willing to install a driver if necessary. You can get a good idea of what the car’s influence on each location will be, before jumping into top tier drivers costing an arm and a leg. You might find the doors give a nice, issue free response allowing a 5” midrange to excel, you also might find that there’s major problems sonically and can come back here and discuss the 30 decibel dip right at 100hz or whatever in the doors.