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Discussion Starter #1
This might be a very easy question which I just have failed to grasp.

From reading around here, seems like most people cross their sub pretty low, between 50 - 80Hz.

From reading some more, there are a few who actually cross theirs on the higher region - 100Hz, maybe 150.

My question is, do most people cross it so low because their subs can't handle playing high or is it just generally better?

With very little experience myself, crossing higher seems to make more sense to me. Especially in a 2-way front stage. Granted, most people do 3way active on here. But in a 2way, you'll only have 2 speakers to cover the full range, I find it hard to find a good value 1" small format tweeter that plays well low, and equally hard to find a good 6.5" woofer that plays well high enough to match a tweeter while doing well enough in the sub-100Hz department. Of course they exists, but still options are limited because of this. So to me it kind of makes sense to let the sub take over sub-150Hz, and let the woofer have a much easier time handling all the way up to 3-4kHz.

In alot of 2way systems on here I notice that the 1kHz-3kHz range( the general cross over point for 2 ways) is relatively neglected - in that the midbass aren't at their best and the tweeters can just keep up at the region. Obviously most people actually have a nice large format tweeter on the A-pillar to overcome this. But I do not understand why nearly ALL emphasis is focused on the midbass region - around 80Hz. 6.5" is pretty small for sub-100Hz duty, and Xmax will need to be high to allow any good performance, which in turn makes other things suffer such as sensitivity etc. Why don't people just let the sub handle that?

there must be good reasons that I don't know yet. I do understand why you wouldn't want to let the sub touch anything above 150Hz, because any higher then people should start to be able to tell where the sound is coming from, thus pulling the stage to the back.
 

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tune for your mid. mate to tweet as high as mid can audibly handle without significant distortion. mate to sub as low as mid can handle without sounding too "muddy" in the vocals. dont fret so much over numbers at this point with your available options.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
To put some practical perspective into this, I have a DIYMA R12 waiting to be installed (who doesn't at this price!?) and I'm looking at something like the B&C 6NDL38 on one hand, for the nice extended high frequencies so I can have a much easier time choosing a tweeter, but of course the low end is not going to put up a fight against something like the Seas, Peerless, Tangbang or Usher etc. well known for their midbass performance. On the other hand I'm looking at having something ultra value like the dayton RS180 which is supposed to hold their own in the midbass department, but will need a much more expensive tweeter to work with - which is probably going to be quite large too. Also there is the ID OEM.

If I can confirm that there is nothing bad crossing the sub high, then alot more options open up for a budget 2way that actually sounds good I think.
 

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we focus on midbass because that is what is usually "lacking". the mid speaker will be tuned "high" in your setup for improved vocal clarity. the sub will be tuned "low". there can be a large gap in response between the sub and mid. this will be the "missing" midbass area. those setups which can deliver vocal clarity (midrange), extended high response (tweeter), and gut-wrenching lows (sub) are still missing the "snap" of a good midbass.
 

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The higher the sub plays, the easier it is to identify its location.
Exactly what I was about to type.

The reason we put midbass drivers up front, and play our fronts as low as we safely can, is to bring the imaging forward. In a well planned/installed system, it'll sound like the bass is coming from the front just like the rest of the frequency range. If you cross your subs over higher it's more likely you'll "hear" them behind you, confusing the soundstage.

This is all assuming your subs are physically located behind you, like they are for probably 95% of us..
 

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The higher the sub plays, the easier it is to identify its location.
Exactly what I was about to type.

The reason we put midbass drivers up front, and play our fronts as low as we safely can, is to bring the imaging forward. In a well planned/installed system, it'll sound like the bass is coming from the front just like the rest of the frequency range. If you cross your subs over higher it's more likely you'll "hear" them behind you, confusing the soundstage.

This is all assuming your subs are physically located behind you, like they are for probably 95% of us..
I find just the opposite as true in my app in both vehicles. I find that the higher I cross my sub, within reason, the more it disappears and merges with the front speakers. because it sounds the same as opposed to a clean sub playing and a mid-bass getting the **** kicked out of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
those setups which can deliver vocal clarity (midrange), extended high response (tweeter), and gut-wrenching lows (sub) are still missing the "snap" of a good midbass.
And I do want that snap of a good midbass. But the 'midbass frequencies' are still being played in both scenarios I described - either by the sub tuned 'high', or by the 6.5" tuned 'low'. So are you saying that, generally speaking, good 6.5" woofers will play midbass better than a good sub? I guess I can conceive that, smaller drivers can move faster and give you that snap and punch better than any sub. Am I correct?
 

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IMO, all of your thoughts are exactly on point. Crossing your sub super low in a 2-way is silly. Not rattling the **** out of the doors is another tradeoff that improves staging, in my experience.
 

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I find just the opposite as true in my app in both vehicles. I find that the higher I cross my sub, within reason, the more it disappears and merges with the front speakers. because it sounds the same as opposed to a clean sub playing and a mid-bass getting the **** kicked out of it.
It's certainly all about compromises and I cross my subs higher than most people around here do - for the exact reason you stated. I actually have to go to 150Hz before I can localize the subs based on what they are actually playing. The thing that most often leads to easy localization is panel resonance with clearly audible higher harmonics and rattles. Using a low X-over point reduces the chances of catching the panel's resonant frequency and exciting the harmonics. It's definitely best to get rid of that crap and work within the system's lmitations.
 

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The higher the sub plays, the easier it is to identify its location.
It's certainly all about compromises and I cross my subs higher than most people around here do - for the exact reason you stated. I actually have to go to 150Hz before I can localize the subs based on what they are actually playing. The thing that most often leads to easy localization is panel resonance with clearly audible higher harmonics and rattles. Using a low X-over point reduces the chances of catching the panel's resonant frequency and exciting the harmonics. It's definitely best to get rid of that crap and work within the system's lmitations.
absolutely, it's all about picking the lesser of two evils. I think my sub starts to show up just a TAD higher but I think the size of the car has a lot to do with this.
 

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It will depend on the car and speakers you use. I think that filtering the sub to only play up to 50hz is silly. Localization doesn't happen until much higher up, around 150hz or so in my case. Sometimes what people think is localization from the sub is actually just buzzing and rattling from something in the back. Obviously these buzzes happen in time with the bass, so it draws the attention backwards. I would rather my sub plays the 100hz range than my mids. Asking any 6.5 to dig down to 50-63hz with authority is unnecessary. With a decent sub and some deadening in the rear, it should be very easy to play your subs up to and even past 100hz without significant localization.

I see Rudeboy beat me to it!
 

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I find just the opposite as true in my app in both vehicles. I find that the higher I cross my sub, within reason, the more it disappears and merges with the front speakers. because it sounds the same as opposed to a clean sub playing and a mid-bass getting the **** kicked out of it.

I'm glad somebody said it. 100Hz 12db/oct LP X-over on my subs with absolutely ZERO localization. I was very happy to see that more and more people are being vocal about the "myth" that is spread so openly about having to cross your subs low.
 

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With some good tuning, I can't see crossing the sub over @ 150 being a problem...
Sub transition should be smooth through the midrange (so I've been told), works for me

Kelvin

PS: and no huge peak @ 45hz ;)
 

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I cross mine around 100Hz 12db slope with the mids at either 80hz/12db or 100hz depending on the music for daily listening with very little to no localization...plus it helps out the midbass...for shows I'll drop it down to completely dissappear as well as dropping the filter on the mids with no problems. The mids will take the lower freq no problem the subs just do a better job of it.
 

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I use a higher x-over point for my subwoofer as well, for the reasons previously given.

I have noticed though that there's a narrow and deep dip in the subwoofer's response around 75~80 Hz at the listening position. This tends to mess up the transition between low bass and mid bass a bit.
 

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While I was (very briefly) tuning my system on the Bit One SP, I first followed the advice I seemed to be hearing on this forum, which was, cross low. Being a noob....I did just that. I have an old school buddy who was with me. He was puzzled and said that I should cross around 100-150Hz.

I have zero mass in my front doors (will be matted later) and when I crossed low....my doors rattled and buzzed like a mf. When i crossed high (I chose 125) it felt and sounded so much better. By sound, I do not mean depth, clarity, etc. I mean, simple freedom from resonance.

I will have to repeat this test when I get the doors matted.
 

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what, the ****?
I always thought subs and sub amps cost a LOT of money to be set up playing from 20Hz (or lower if you have owl ears) to 50Hz. But 20-36Hz.

Just wow....

Now I know what I am about to say depends on the setup and obviously the person...and mostly MY hearing deficiencies....but when running demo discs in my tuning session, I noticed I could not HEAR any bass until the sweeps hit 40Hz.

So if I crossed at 36Hz I would be on the phone complaining to the sub mfr.., that the bastard was broken...!! LOL LOL LOL
 
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