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Why cross midbass drivers so low re low-pass?

6747 Views 27 Replies 13 Participants Last post by  Melodic Acoustic
I see that most 4-way setups have the midbass drivers crossed at 200hz 250hz ect.

Seems to me that many midbass drivers are cabable of running up into the 4 digit frequency range. Does no one run them into these regions because they have tried it and it sounded bad or is it just conventional system layout that they are following?

Didn't RC run some 12's up to 800hz or so for goodness sake?
I have some LARGE midbass drivers I can get into my kicks with some very good PLD #'s
Will Good PLD numbers help get a midbass driver playing 75 to 700 hz to sound right?
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More thoughts.
I have a set of 10" [email protected] drivers that based on actual cone dia #'s should begin to beam at 1650hz or so. My thinking is that I could run them up to 700hz....even off axis and still be ok.
The whole thing about 3-ways frontsets is using a dedicated driver per range:
- midbass
- midrange
- highs

Because the human ear is most sensitive in the midrange area, it is recommended to keep this range as wide as possible, so the crossoverpoints are at or beyond the edges of this sensitive range and the sound character of this range is the same over the whole range.

Optimally, a midrange should be able to play from 100Hz to 8kHz, but since there is a lot of midbass "punch" in the 100-200Hz range and very high crossoverpoints can cause troubles because of the very very short wavelengths, it's a lot more realistic to have the crossoverpoints at 200-250Hz and 5-6.3kHz.

Using a low crossoverpoint between midbass and midrange also allows you to use high-excursion woofers or small subwoofers that do play well up to about 300Hz, but not so good beyond that point as midbasswoofers.
Even a 6" high-excursion woofer can dig down to 50Hz with plenty of authority, you cannot do that with a lower-excursion 6 or even 8" midwoofer that is designed to play well up to 2.5k or even higher.


This is also the whole idea behind F.A.S.T. systems (I'm a huge fan of this type of setups if they're designed well): a fullrange driver playing all the midrange and highs with an additional (sub)woofer only to support the FR in the bass-range.

Isabelle
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Once they start beaming they will produce sound in a narrower pattern , enter reflection ... refraction and all sorts of fancy >50 cent w3rds.

Knowing how to use it to your advantage is your mission impossible should you accept it

"this tape will self destruct in 10 seconds"
:D
Indeed, and that's also the downside of F.A.S.T. setups: If the full-range driver is too big, there is too much beaming in the higher octaves, if it's too small, the crossoverpoint can't be set low enough.
That's why I decided to use tweeters in our car anyways, so I can use nice 4" fullrangers that can dig down to 200Hz at high volume level easily, without having to worry about the off-axis response in the top-end.

Isabelle
My "midbass" drivers are reproducing from 80 Hz to 315 Hz and I only have a 2-way plus sub configuration. ;)
Once they start beaming they will produce sound in a narrower pattern , enter reflection ... refraction and all sorts of fancy >50 cent w3rds.
k so first I was like :thinking2:

Knowing how to use it to your advantage is your mission impossible should you accept it

"this tape will self destruct in 10 seconds"
:D
then I was like :uhoh2: :cwm13:

now Im like ... a higher midbass should would and could play up to 500hz . and down to 50-60hz flat .. sealed ..
no ?
Good luck finding a driver that is able to play a 50Hz and a 500Hz note at the same time and at higher volume level without sounding muddy!

500Hz is a frequency that is easier to play cleanly trough a 3-5" midwoofer/fullranger than trough a 6.5"+ high-excursion driver!

You can't expect from a man with a low voice to hit notes that make a wine-glass shatter apart....
You can't expect from a woman with a high voice to hit notes that make your stomach rumble...
Why do you think you can expect from a driver that is designed to dig really low to play frequencies that are well in the midrange cleanly?

Isabelle
Case by case I will say. Have to depend on type of drivers used. If I have a midrange driver that have a FS value of 100Hz(which is very hard to get), I will LPF my midbass driver 250Hz(or lowest possible by the HU settings).
Basically, have to see how low the midrange can go is the deciding factor. I LPF my midbass 800Hz just because my midrange driver can't go lower and I do lost some of the info around 315-630Hz.
Some midbass driver cannot sing, this is why it is crossed very low.....
Didn't RC run some 12's up to 800hz or so for goodness sake?
I have some LARGE midbass drivers I can get into my kicks
DO EET !!
I dont need to read post 3 . most drivers are capable of 2.5 octaves and 3 octaves is quite possible and doable , although I totally agree not optimal .
im sure many 8" midbass specific drivers , not subs play 500 hz quite well - the imaging is one aspect if on axis with other drivers - litle reflections etc etc every aspect fine tuned .
but yes I agree if playin down low in the near sub bass notes it is not goin to sound 100% proper playin up to almost 3 octaves higher . with power and lots of excursion ..
but if you must .. it is doable - for a non comp system and not pushin to the limits of xmax
and dont forget midbass hump that comes into play at any xover point and no eq'ing
Good luck finding a driver that is able to play a 50Hz and a 500Hz note at the same time and at higher volume level without sounding muddy!

500Hz is a frequency that is easier to play cleanly trough a 3-5" midwoofer/fullranger than trough a 6.5"+ high-excursion driver!

You can't expect from a man with a low voice to hit notes that make a wine-glass shatter apart....
You can't expect from a woman with a high voice to hit notes that make your stomach rumble...
Why do you think you can expect from a driver that is designed to dig really low to play frequencies that are well in the midrange cleanly?

Isabelle
That's silly. There are plenty of drivers capable of playing that high without sounding "muddy". Muddiness is generally a frequency response issue anyway. Most drivers don't suffer from nonlnear distortion in that range nearly as much as the range below ~150hz and cone break ups higher in frequency.

To answer the OP's question. Most crossover their midbass that low to remove a crossover in the critical vocal range. This range spans from around 300hz to 5000hz, though their are some harmonics that are higher and lower. In my opinion, a phase error is much more difficult to hear under 1k, compared to 2-3k of two ways. You're still improving things. Give it a try!
Beaming is not such a bad thing if you can get your drivers on-axis. And in many cases not such a bad thing if you want to go a little off axis, if you have ton of reflective surfaces around. As A$$hole stated knowing how to use it is another story, but not impossible. Not sure about the 50hz and 500hz range as there is many drivers that do it great. There are some killer 2 way systems out there! Would I run a 6.5" mid/bass driver that low is another story.

Beaming is a simple consequence of unwanted interference of all the tiny point sources distributed over the cone surface. Directly on-axis, all points are approximately equal distant to the ear. But off-axis, the points are at different distances to the ear ... therefore, they can destructively interfere at high frequencies, reducing the off-axis response or narrowing the dispersion pattern.

Also remember beaming is a factor of cone diameter, not what the manufacture says the driver size is. Most 6.5-7 inch drivers will have about 4.5-5.5 inches of cone area, depends on their design. Things such as cone profile and material does have an effect on the off-axis response/beaming, but very little. Everything else in the design, well really doesn't matter. Feel free to ignore all marketing hype to the contrary. Bottom line with every postive/gain there is usually a negative/lost, no way around Physics.

If you are convinced that your driver starts to "beam" at a frequency that's too low, and this effect is causing a problem in your installation, there's only one thing you can do: buy a driver with a smaller cone diameter.

Even if you are listening mostly on-axis, you might still care that beaming occurs at too low a frequency, because the power response (integrated off-axis response) is changing ... meaning that the reflections from the driver are changing as the driver starts to beam. Remember that in a reflective environment (like a car, with big glass reflectors all around your head), even if you think you're listening "on-axis", your ears are also receiving lots of reflected energy, know how/dealing with this is the key. You will either deal with it, change drivers or rebuild you interior (this is I'm doing:blush:)

Ok equation to calculate beaming:

An 6.5" driver with cone radiating area of 5.3 inches (Sd):

Speed of sound = approx 1145 feet per minute at sea level.

1145 *12 = 13740 (the speed of sound in inches)

Divide 13740 by the cone diameter (sd); so 13740/5.3= 2592.45 so beaming would start approximately around 2.6khz


As stated above the lower the driver plays and the more range you want it to reproduce the more adverse effects playing it to low will have on the upper range of the driver. Its all about you level of acceptance of these adverse effects.

I will use one of my own driver as an example. The new XR6.5M is a 6.5" Ultra wide-band driver. Cone area is right around 5.3" same as the above example. This beast will play from 50hz - up with easy, but do I like the sound of it that low. For a reference system no, everyday listening yes i could live with it very easily, but i would never run it that low at a reference volume level, as it playing it that low starts to have adverse effect on the midrange, causing it to sound a little rough on the edges, the higher frequencies starts to fall off a bit and sound a little un-natural to my ears.

Now raise the crossover point to 63hz and wow what a difference that little boost of the high-pass makes. Everything start to fall in place, open up, kick-drums tighten up, highs are crisp, midrange becomes natural and accurate and detailed greatly improves. Now boost that to round 70hz and it improves in a few areas, not as much as from 50hz to 63hz, but it still improves 70-80hz seem to be the sweet spot. My point once again is; with every postive/gain there is usually a negative/lost, no way around Physics.. Play a driver to low with a wide range and you kill your upper range resolution. Like everything else it is all about finding that sweet spot.

Some drivers play wide ranges better then others and this is most do to motor design and cone material (believe it or not).

or i could just be talking crazy!
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Bottom line with every postive/gain there is usually a negative/lost, no way around Physics.

My point once again is; with every postive/gain there is usually a negative/lost, no way around Physics.. Play a driver to low with a wide range and you kill your upper range resolution. Like everything else it is all about finding that sweet spot.

Some drivers play wide ranges better then others and this is most do to motor design and cone material (believe it or not).

or i could just be talking crazy!
You have to give up something to get something else. That's the one universal truth about this crazy hobby. ;)
Lots to think about, I don't think 4" mids are going to do it for me.
I'll figure it out. Pics will come one of these days. Epic seven amp, active 4-way with center and rears build. whew. Thats a mouthfull.
Well, you can always can some "fullrange" drivers for your rear fill and center. Drivers with 150-20000Hz is a good start. But alot of such drivers to roll off(am I using the right term?) when above 10000Hz.
We have 5 TangBand W4-1337 fullrangers laying around here. However they are 4", they don't roll off above 10kHz. They actually need to be tamed a little in the top octave!
The problem with full-range drivers is that they are bigger than a tweeter, so their off-axis response at higher frequencies isn't as good.
The easiest ways to solve this are:
- add a tweeter (We'll use a couple Dayton Audio ND20FB-4's)
- aim them directly to your ears (this is harder than the previous option and impossible to do when the sound has to be right at more than 1 position...)

Whizzer coned drivers tend to have a better off-axis response, but there aren't many higher-end whizzer-coned fullrangers out there and most of them have a very low x-max.

Isabelle
^How about adding some plastic grilles? I found certain fullrange drivers sound better than without grilles attached to. But this is greatly depend on the location of the drivers.
Fostex Full-Range Speakers For Sale. One Speaker, High Efficiency, DIY, Monitor Speakers with no crossover.

Fostex FE206E eight inch full-range speakers--the BEST sounding of all Fostex speakers.....$184/pr.


Whizzer coned drivers tend to have a better off-axis response, but there aren't many higher-end whizzer-coned fullrangers out there and most of them have a very low x-max.

Isabelle
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