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Discussion Starter #1
I'm curious what everyone thinks of using wideband drivers in stock dash speaker locations that fire up into the windshield. My Dodge Challenger came stock with 3.5" drivers (no tweeters) that fired up into the windshield. I've since tried a few different aftermarket speakers in the dash, including Infinity Reference coaxials, Kenwood KFC-X3C coaxials and lastly, Illusion Audio C3CX coaxials. The C3CX definitely sounded the best of them all, but they seem so "fragile" for such an expensive speaker. I was constantly worried about the tweeters blowing (or cutting out via the tweeter protection circuit) and actually ended up having issues with the woofer (doesn't seem to like 250hz, 24dB crossovers).

I'm trying to figure out if I should attempt to fix/replace the failed C3CX or just go with a 3"/3.5" wideband driver such as the Hybrid Audio Legatia L3SE. Just not sure if a tweeterless wideband would work OK firing up into the windshield (although, being that the stock speakers were also tweeterless, maybe that says something). Does firing up into the windshield help or hurt the high treble frequencies? Does it help "boost" the higher freqs by firing up into the glass like that?

The C3CX seems to be the only "high-quality" 3" coaxial on the market - and like I said, I'm not sure I want to keep investing in speakers that seem so "fragile" (I see so many reports of blown tweeters, etc) - so I'm considering other options - specifically wideband drivers, as replacements.

Thoughts?

Thank you!
 

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There was a spare c3cx floating around for sale on here a few months ago, might be able to buy it from whoever ended up with it. Would need to search around.

Properly crossing them to keep them safe is critical if you're going to really run them at high volume. Think I'm at 400 or 450hz on the woofer and 4700hz on tweet.

Alternatively, the audiofrog gs25 wideband might be worth a look, but that will definitely have to be crossed a bit higher.
 

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Widebands are like midranges and really don't do high's all that well.

Years ago, someone found the R&D paper pdf for why some automakers fired into the dash. Automakers just went in-your-face front soundstage crazy. It works if done correctly. Some people like that directly reflected flood sound.

I would use a 3-3.5" midrange and locate a good surface or drill a hole mounted tweeter(pillar/door/dash/where ever or pod tumor). This will give you the choice of building your own 6-12db crossovers and tailor it for your ear.

If the widerange doesn't cut it, you might be able to get away with just adding a tweeter, not necessarily the Sony but the pictures show what they were going for:

I also don't think I would run a dash speaker down to 250hz. Maybe it would work better from 500hz-1000hz to 6k hz for the mid and 6k+ for the tweeter.

Are you using DSP and amps, or trying use passives with the OE system?
 

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Why cross so low though? I get the point of supposedly having "all vocals from one set", but that's a bit overstated. I tend to cross around 400-600hz on small mids to keep distortion at bay and just like crossing a sub higher to aid in midbass, the midwoofer can be used a tad higher to help with lower midrange. All can be done without sacrificing stage height if tuned properly.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I completely understand that it's important to "protect" the speakers with proper crossover settings. However, the manufacturer specifically states this:

"Recommended high pass electronic xover: 250 Hz 12 dB Linkwitz-Riley"

I was running them at 275hz/24dB, so I was "safer" than their recommendation. I was never playing them anywhere near their power limits (50W RMS, 100W max) and not clipping them. So to me, my settings should have never damaged the speaker (in fact they didn't damage the other one). Not to mention that a lot of the tweeter failures I've read about were with people using the included passive crossover (which is supposed to "protect" the tweeter) - and even includes "Tweeter Protection". :)

Definitely didn't leave a good taste in my mouth, that's all. Like I said, they just seem like they are "fragile" speakers. Just not sure i want to constantly worry about damaging them, since I do like loud music. Until now, I've never damaged a single speaker in my entire life. :)

Just not sure how well "Wideband" speakers will work aiming up into the windshield. Was hoping someone had some input on that. Don't want to invest in a nice set of widebands only to find that they're not a good fit for stock dash locations that fire up into the windshield. Not looking to custom-mount a tweeter - want to keep the system a 2-way system (either midbass + coaxial or midbass + wideband).

Thanks.
 

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There was a spare c3cx floating around for sale on here a few months ago, might be able to buy it from whoever ended up with it. Would need to search around.

Properly crossing them to keep them safe is critical if you're going to really run them at high volume. Think I'm at 400 or 450hz on the woofer and 4700hz on tweet.

Alternatively, the audiofrog gs25 wideband might be worth a look, but that will definitely have to be crossed a bit higher.
If audiofrog sold widebands I'd have bought a pair.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I actually purchased a set of Hybrid Audio Legatia S3SE widebands from another member yesterday. I'll give them a shot. After all, all of the different factory "premium" audio system options are all tweeter-less as well, so maybe the speaker locations and angles are designed to work best with a tweeter-less setup. My car originally had the Alpine "premium" amplified system which had a tweeter-less 3.5" speaker and I don't recall thinking that the factory system was majorly lacking in the high-end, especially after boosting the highs a little with the factory head-unit treble slider, so maybe things will work out fine without a tweeter in my aftermarket system as well.

I do also recall reading at least one other Challenger owner running a tweeter-less aftermarket system and they mentioned that they didn't miss the tweeter at all. We'll see. If I don't like it, I can always re-sell or add a tweeter - although, I'm really looking to stick with factory locations. Absolute worst case, I can just go back to the Kenwood 3.5 coaxial that I started with - it sounded pretty damn good - I was just experimenting to see how much better I could make it. I like messing with this stuff... :)

I'm running with the factory head-unit -> PAC AmpPro 4 (optical) -> Helix DSP.3 -> JL Audio XD600/6v2 amp (75W x 6 RMS).

I seem to be having issues stopping the dash speakers from becoming harsh/overwhelming at higher volumes, while still sounding good at lower volumes. I was hoping that using a lower crossover point would help them stay a little "warmer" sounding at higher volumes, which is why I tired the 275hz/24dB crossovers. Originally, I was using 450hz crossover points. When I saw the Illusion Audio recommendation of 250hz/12dB crossovers, I figured I'd give 275/24dB a shot. That didn't work out so well. It sounded good until I heard that issue with the speaker though. :)

The more that I think about it, I guess it's entirely possible that one of the C3CX's that I purchased was already "bad" when I received it and I just didn't know it until I tried playing it down to 275hz/24dB. The speaker still works normally with a crossover of 400hz or 450hz, so maybe it was always like this and I just didn't know it. The risk you take when buying "Brand New In Box" at a discount....
 

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Have you checked out wideband's from Audible Physics?

Like the RAM 2A which is a 2" one and the NZ3AlBe which is a 3" one.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Have you checked out wideband's from Audible Physics?

Like the RAM 2A which is a 2" one and the NZ3AlBe which is a 3" one.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
I have. Was looking at both the Hybrid Audio Legatia S3SE and one of NZ3 versions of the Audible Physics. Really had no idea which one is "better" for my situation, which is stock dash speaker locations firing up into the windshield. I already bought the Hybrid Audios, but I won't actually have them for a week or two due to sellers situation. I want to stay with a 3" or 3.5" driver (big as I can without major customization).

Both about the same price used... We'll see how the Hybrids work out and go from there, I guess. Not yet convinced tweeter-less is going to work for me, but we'll see.
 

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Will this strategy still deliver the very high frequencies on a two-way system? I like the concept; I'm just wondering if the highs usually provided a dedicated tweeter will be lacking. Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Will this strategy still deliver the very high frequencies on a two-way system? I like the concept; I'm just wondering if the highs usually provided a dedicated tweeter will be lacking. Thanks!
That is the million dollar question... :) I'm hoping it will, but I really have no idea. Being that the stock system was also tweeter-less and the highs seemed fine (from what I can remember), I'm hoping it will work out.

I am 47 years old and probably don't hear anything above 15k'ish anyway (if that), so that will probably help. :)
 

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That is the million dollar question... :) I'm hoping it will, but I really have no idea. Being that the stock system was also tweeter-less and the highs seemed fine (from what I can remember), I'm hoping it will work out.

I am 47 years old and probably don't hear anything above 15k'ish anyway (if that), so that will probably help. :)
Let me guess...the OEM speakers are called "tweedlers"? I hate that stupid name and I still have to rip mine out of my car so I don't have to use the term again...😂
 

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I have. Was looking at both the Hybrid Audio Legatia S3SE and one of NZ3 versions of the Audible Physics. Really had no idea which one is "better" for my situation, which is stock dash speaker locations firing up into the windshield. I already bought the Hybrid Audios, but I won't actually have them for a week or two due to sellers situation. I want to stay with a 3" or 3.5" driver (big as I can without major customization).

Both about the same price used... We'll see how the Hybrids work out and go from there, I guess. Not yet convinced tweeter-less is going to work for me, but we'll see.
I am getting a wideband too for my active setup just like you.

Audible Physics RAM 6B (80Hz to 4000Hz @ 24dB LR + Audible Physics RAM 2Q (4500Hz to 20K Hz @ 24dB LR).

I just have kept these figures as rough starting point. Shall tweak according once they are setup in the car.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Has anyone actually tried an Audiofrog GS25 wideband driver in stock dash locations? Audiofrog definitely calls the GS25 a true wideband driver - with a freq response up to 20khz...

Just curious if that is a viable option or not for a tweeter-less setup.
 

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I have GS25’s in my stock dash locations and i like them, right now i’m running them of stock power but i’m sure they’ll shine with proper power and tuning.

I used to run C3cx’s and loved them but i did have one bad tweeter after a while, good think i was still under warranty and got a replacement.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I have GS25’s in my stock dash locations and i like them, right now i’m running them of stock power but i’m sure they’ll shine with proper power and tuning.

I used to run C3cx’s and loved them but i did have one bad tweeter after a while, good think i was still under warranty and got a replacement.
So I'm curious - are you going to reinstall the C3CX's or just go with the GS25's going forward?

My C3CX's seem to be working fine again now that I've went back to a higher crossover (using 400 currently), but just not sure I want to rely on them going forward. I have to believe the one isn't right due to the issues it has at lower crossover freqs (one is fine at both higher and lower xovers and the other only likes higher xovers). Waiting to hear back from ORCA on repair/replacement, but so far, crickets... The contact email address on the Illusion Audio website doesn't even work. Just not a good experience so far. :) The company just doesn't seem all that interested in selling speakers anymore....

I also decided to try a pair of GS25's, along with the Hybrid Legatia S3SE. I'll keep the ones I like best and sell the other.

Will definitely post my thoughts on both after i get them.
 

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I have the Audiofrog GS25s running in the dash pointed at the windshield. I think they are great. Not that difficult to tune. I don’t find them lacking in the top end at all. I have them crossed at 300 Hz (I tried them around 250 but felt they were better at 300 as I could stay away from their natural roll off and resonance frequency better when crossed a bit higher). I power them with a helix p six. I have peerless SLS 6” in the doors. Andy at Audiofrog recommended crossing them closer to 300 if you are throwing a bunch of power at them (which I don’t think I am but I’d rather play it safe).

Pointing them up at the windshield actually works quite well as the higher frequencies (that are beaming and not reaching your ears directly) get reflected very quickly and hit your ear at about the same time as the direct (lower) frequencies. I went from a tweeter (SB29RDNC) and probably won’t go back as I like the sound that much better with everything much more up on the dash.

I posted this recently in another thread but this was my most recent tune of each of the drivers individually, and the entire left side and entire right side (with sub). The roll off you see at the top end that is a bit lower than my target curve is by design (I liked how it sounded).




I’m also going to try the Hybrid Audio Unity U2 to see which one I like better. I’ll see if I can post some measurements from REW showing how the GS25 does without any EQ vs the Unity U2 without EQ just to give folks an idea of how much EQ work each of them need (this is particular to my car but may be helpful to some that are thinking of pointing them at the windshield).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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I sold my C3cx’s but even if i hadn’t i’d most likely would’ve still stuck with the GS25’s

I’m content with them now just being a stock speaker upgrade running of car’s stock power, and as i mentioned i expect a huge improvement after properly amplifying and tuning them, so i don’t see the need to swap them “just because” or “to try something new” Not to judge anyone who does swap their speakers often as i been down that road before, i’m just stating that’s not where i’m currently at.

And even IF i did get the itch to switch i’d just go GB series being that i don’t even see myself looking at anything other than Audiofrog as there’s such a solid person behind them, best costumer service ever!

In contrast with Orca (Like you said; crickets!)
i’ve gotten rid of all my illusion and Mosconi stuff! and i had a bit of Mosconi
 

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I have. Was looking at both the Hybrid Audio Legatia S3SE and one of NZ3 versions of the Audible Physics. Really had no idea which one is "better" for my situation, which is stock dash speaker locations firing up into the windshield. I already bought the Hybrid Audios, but I won't actually have them for a week or two due to sellers situation. I want to stay with a 3" or 3.5" driver (big as I can without major customization).

Both about the same price used... We'll see how the Hybrids work out and go from there, I guess. Not yet convinced tweeter-less is going to work for me, but we'll see.
Just curious why you want to stay as big as you can in that location. In general, a bigger driver will have more mass and will have more difficulty moving almost instantaneously for the very high frequencies. A smaller wideband such as those just under 3” may do a better job at the high end while still digging down to 300-400 Hz.

A bigger driver will also beam earlier.

I can understand wanting to hit those 300-400 Hz frequencies well, but I don’t think the drivers that are just under 3” will have a problem with that (I can verify this is no problem for the GS25 and I’m guessing the HAT U2, L2SE, and audible physics RAM 2 as well, and likely others....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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