So the Sony amp is the factory? If so, I would not use the outputs from the amp. I would use the outputs from the factory H/U. That could be the reason the 3sixty3 has had some failures. If you can verify the output power of the Sony amp then you could be sure if the output from that amp is too much for the 3sixty3 high level inputs.

IMO, you may be seeing some factory EQuing from the H/U and amp. If you can research on a Ford forum to see where any factory EQ is made, either in the factory amp or H/U.

In my case I used the FiX to integrate with the factory H/U and bypassed the factory amp. It was a little tricky to locate the output signals from the H/U but worth the labor.

Does the 3sixty3 do signal summing and de-EQuing? That could be important once you find out if the factory Ford system has built in EQ and such. If it doesn't then you should be fine with the 3sixty3.

If your factory system has these features then you should choose a DSP that deals with these conditions. The RF website doesn't seem to do that, but since you already have it, or will get it back from repair, then maybe the FiX is a good fit. The 3sixty3 looks like a decent unit, although I have no experience with any but the FiX and TwK.

 

I should also comment on this. Vendors that sell the 3sixty, including Rockford advise against using the outputs from the H/U. The reason being, the signal is generally very weak.

I did verify the voltage on each high level, and the total output wasnt' beyond the 28v, FYI. I also know the Sony amp itself does some level of DSP work, but what is unknown. (unless I can find and pin down a Ford engineer, and I don't have any trips to Detroit planned I know of).

That said, the 3sixty will sum, but no de-EQ function I'm aware of (at least in software, hardware is unknown as well, and not documented). The only solid evidence of "best practice" I've received from RF is use as few high levels as possible, like 2 total. Which probably helps your point hold water.

I'm looking at either the Helix, or the JBL MS product at this point, which I've seen both specifically called out on this forum. However, I just want to make sure that I should or shouldn't bypass the factory amp. At this point, I'm ready to buy the JL FiX 82 and the Helix and make sure it's not even in the equation. At least I know what signal I'm getting, and I won't have to use a high level converter.

Edit: and having someone chime in with practical experience and application would also make me more comfortable before I spend that in store credit.

 

P.S. I would think that any DSP would experience failures if connected to the outputs of almost any amp. I know the factories are small but even a 30 watt output signal maybe too much for any DSP. I would suspect that any DSP would work for a while but taxing the internals of a DSP with long periods of high wattage would cause a slow death to even the best DSP.

I did look at the RF and Helix DSP's and did see they can handle 28v and 20v inputs respectively so you should check what the output is at your maximum listening level.

 

Hey man, thanks for the response. I'm done with the 3sixty - other than the issues I'm laying out, it has it's other limitations too. That said, I think what you're telling me is that the amp is going in to the processor (3sixty) way too hot. Which, in effect, would be the case with any DSP - not many are rated above 28v input...

Rockford has assured me that it can beyond handle what the factory amp is sending it...which I now tend to disagree with. Either way, from what you're saying I think I can gather that I'm best off with a device like the FiX from the head unit, out to a DSP of choice? So if I do that, it would eliminate any type of sound processing from the Sony amp or head unit, or at least flatten or level out what I'm getting from the head unit and completely ignore the sony amp. However will I lose basic functionality of the OEM system, such as Sirius? The volume aspects I can work around and hardly use. Other than the reverse sensor alarm.

Again, thanks - this is invaluable.

 

Well I can tell you what my experience is so far. I could not get a definitive answer on where the factory EQ came from, H/U or factory amp. So the FiX was a good fit for my Civic. So to be clear, I connected only the H/U outputs and left all other connections as they were. This had no affect on any other function of the vehicle systems, everything still functioned properly.

I noticed that the Tweeter output was a function of the amp only and probably just a crossed full range. I connected all five outputs, 4 full range and one sub output to the FiX. I ran the calibration process as described and was thouroghly impressed. Even with a very weak output signal the FiX does an incredible job.

I do hear some changes in the EQ as I turn up the volume on the H/U. So for me this won't be an issue as the TwKD8 comes with remote control with volume control. I was able to overcome this before the TwK by lowering the H/U volume and then re-calibrating the FiX. This also caused me to re-do my gain structure a bit but worth it for now, until I can get a better tune from the TwK.

FWIW, after setting T/A, crossovers and a few tweaks on the PEQ.......I am totally Jazzed up now. I need to work on speaker placement for the two widebanders and will change the titanium dome twts for silks. But I am really enjoying this.

Oh, one more thing, when I connected the FiX to the factory H/U, I got a little noise and had to do some shielding and grounded the shielded wires I used to connect the two, to the other end. The factory wires were grounded at the connector on the H/U.

Hope this helps and keep us posted on your progress.

 

Fair enough - one thing I do like the aspect of, is having the ability to use the built in RTA with the Helix, or even REW and my miniDSP RTA mic to calibrate this thing full on. Since I've already rand the high levels out to a DSP, I'm thinking I'll wait to see what audiotec-fischer comes back with - I just emailed them. I'm hoping I can get some kind of definitive answer on how to actually run this thing, since there more options than solid "working" answers. I've even PMd folks on this forum that have the same year/model...so let's see what happens. Like I said, I have about a week to wait for the store credit...

 

Strange that Rockford recommends only two inputs???

What if you have a sub? separate signals for tweets, etc.? That leads me to believe that there zero to very little summing capabilities.

 

Well exactly - they basically recommend using the least amount of high level inputs to the 3sixty, then summing your channels out to your amps. Supposedly that works, but I didn't try that before I returned it. I found that on a board or got that from Forrest with their support, who is a rock star honestly. Given the wide array of vehicles and issues he could get hit with, his knowledge and patience is unparamount. If you need to call Rockford support, do it. He's great to work with. That said, the limitations and bugs with the 3sixty (sorry Steve Meade), i just can't deal with it anymore. Plus the Helix is about 3 times the DSP the 3sixty is. I still have RF amps, and will keep them.

 

I just looked up the schematics for your truck, I think that your integration will be quite similar to mine. The sub output is from the H/U and looks like you also have 4 full range outputs. So eliminate the factory amp from the equation, it is now superfolus.

Didn't dig too deep into the schematics but you should verify that the amp does not provide any other interconnects or functions for other systems. or you could do what I did, only disconnect the outputs from the H/U and just leave the amp. I found after disconnecting the factory amp connectors had no ill affects to other vehicle functions.

 

Awesome, thanks!

 

I think that will work just fine. The only thing I am curious about is the volume control. What I mean is that if you wish to use the factory volume controls, steering wheel, etc. and there is EQing coming from the H/U then you could have an issue there.

I did but after turning down the factory volume and re-calibrating the FiX the EQing seemed to go away. I would feel pretty bad if my suggestions got you into any traouble here. I can't say for sure that "it went away", it may have been minimized to a point where I can't hear it, but it could still be there. I am waiting on a mic so I can measure with REW. That would be a good questionf for JL and Audiotec.

 

Not to send you too far down the rabbit hole, but this is the first thread I read on Ford integration when I started my research...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...um/general-car-audio-discussion/198034-measuring-oem-hu-frequency-response.html

There are others like it if you search "Ford Sync" or some similar pairings on the forum. Very interesting reading from some of the contributors.

 

That rabbit hole is most welcome! So, what I've learned is that the H/U is EQ'ing the signal. Now I'm curious to see what/if Helix says in response to my email last night. MS-8 recommends Front L/R and Sub connections only - not sure if Helix is going to say the same thing.

I need to search for the "flashing your OEM head unit thread". I understand this can be done, so now I just need to figure out exactly what components to get, or if I should try to flash the h/u. Still leaning towards the FiX 82, then going TOSlink to the Helix. The FiX should at the very least flatten the signal that's coming from the H/U. I tried to call JL this morning, but they are closed for Christmas...not a bad thing.

Thanks again for all the insight - this entire project is a rabbit hole at this point, so any type of forum post that helps educate me on what this thing is actually doing, I'm all for!

 

I have the exact same truck and factory system as yours. I even use the 3sixty with now issues.

You cannot that the HU outputs directly to any DSP because they are on a can-bus between the HU and Sony amp.

Regardless of what DSP you choose you will want to take the front woofer and tweeter signals and sum those to get a full range signal.

Do Not use the sub channel out of the Sony DSP as an input to the new DSP. The Sony sub channel is actually a low-level signal. The sub amplifier is integrated into the factory sub enclosure.

Here is a thread where they actually measured the response and distortion levels of the factory DSP. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/135919-2012-ford-f150-raptor.html

This also has peaked my interest because it is specifically designed for the Ford Sony systems. DSR1 - 8-Channel Interactive Signal Processor w/ Integrated iDatalink Maestro Module | Rockford Fosgate®

 

I was hoping someone with the same vehicle would chime in! Thanks. So that said, how do you run your subs? I'm going to take the front L/R high levels for the mid and tweet, and will run those to the DSP ONLY. I'll probably go Helix, because I like that product a lot and should be able to "de-EQ" and normalize everything via REW, the DSP RTA and my RTA mic. My only question is how your sub amp is ran - did you just use the factory low level signal directly to your sub and left it off the DSP, or did you sum that with a high level from the fronts and then ran your channels accordingly in the DSP?

Thanks again - this is helpful

 

Wow Rob, thanks. It sounds like you have some pretty heavy experience with the Sony set ups. If you're seeing good results with the FiX and TwK combo I'm happy to go that route. One thing I wonder and will research is if the FiX uses a harness to tap in to the headunit or if I'm inserting between the headunit and amp manually?

Thanks again, great idea.

 

You would tap into the signal post-amplifier (amp outputs to the speakers). All you need to do is tap into the amplifiers midrange and tweeter outputs for the front stage.

You can find more install info on FiX and TwK in our Help Center:
FiX & TwK Articles

 

Please come back with your impressions after it's all installed and setup.

 

Regardless of what product you use I would recommend taking advantage of the high level inputs. In your case place the Fix82 as close to the DSP as possible. This limits the length of RCA cables and the ability to pick up noise in the system.

Also if you plan to use the factory remote wire understand that it is a 5v remote. I had originally installed an Audio Control piece and it never worked well with the sensing circuit. I ended up installing a 5v relay that activated a 12v relay. Results were much better IMO. I cant speak for the JL sensing circuit but as far as the Rockford and Audio Control it worked much better.

 

With the FiX 82 and TwK D8 you can go optical using a TOSLINK cable and not even have to worry about unwanted noise entering the system between the two.

 

I used the remote output from my head unit. The DC offset wasn't really reliable, I guess that the DC voltage doesn't change much in my Honda. I had issues with other components that would not turn on with the DC offset.

The signal sensing also didn't work for me because the out put from the H/U is very low. When the GF would turn down the radio volume to talk on the phone, the system would shut down. But this may work for you because you're tapping into the amp out puts.

 

The issue with the Ford Sony system is that the remote is a 5v output unless you have the Raptor model were you can tap into the. Uplifter switches.

All that is required is a 5v relay to signal a 12v relay. Not that big of an issue as long as you tap into the correct wire.

The Sony system and the Honda's are completely different animals.

 

Ok I'm confused? The FiX remote in is not the power source for the unit, it's just the signal to "turn on". For me, I used the remote out for the disconnected factory amp and ran a fused constant 12v source right from the distribution block.

Now I need to know why a relay is needed? What did I do wrong?

 

Again, I am speaking to the original posters question about integrating with the Ford Sony system. Remote wires are typically 12v, the Ford Sony system uses a 5v. The Honda system may have a 12v remote. I dont have any experience with it so I cant say. To use the 5v remote supplied by the Ford Sony system you have to use it to trigger a separate remote with a 12v source.

If yours is working then I would say you did it right :laugh:

 

Aha, I'm glad a Ford guy helped him. He would have been set back a few weeks listening to me!

 

Ha! Well, I know my intention is to basically just use an add a circuit and run to the DC switched input on the FiX, then I can remote out to the TwK and be fine. 10A fuses should suffice and there are spares inside the passenger compartment fuse panel. The only confusion I have is the 12v Battery connection this thing also has - I'm not sure if I need both?

 

I got your PM, I got busy with the holidays and forgot to reply. Sorry I didn't reply until you ordered everything.

 

All good - install is being done tonight thanks to a garage heater! I'll post some pics after it's all done.

 

Interested to see how all this hooks up with the sony amp and such incase my ms8 ever leaves me. In for pics.

 

I'll be sure to post some pics next weekend. I'm leaving tomorrow and it's below zero here - so that was an after thought. Also, this spring is the big 3 upgrade, plus I'm going 0 and 4 AWG back to a distribution block to clean things up a bit. My neighbor and I are talking about a 3 day venture where we gut it, re-mount and re-run all the cabling to help clean it up. It's been torn apart about 4 times now, so it's not the cleanest but not a disaster.

It's in and working - I'm very happy with it, but also found some learnings that I wanted to share. First, the LSA-4 was NOT necessary. The system doesn't mute, and grabs signal just fine. I ran the mids to 1/2, highs to 3/4 and left the sub out, until...

Worked out the kinks this morning. Had a couple of silly calibration issues which I can only relate to a poorly crimped barrel connector. That resolved it, recalibrated fine. After all was said and done, the subs were WEAK. To the point all the volume or gain in the world wouldn't help them. There are two leads coming off the Sony amp to the factory sub. We pulled the factory sub enclosure apart and sure enough, no amp inside the factory box, just a dual voice coil 8". Hooked a 9v to the leads and it moved. So we took ONE of the factory sub inputs and connected it (mono) to the TwK. All of a sudden, BOOM. Subs are banging now. Naturally, YMMV but this is what I've found so far and had success with. If the sub becomes an issue, disconnecting and recalibrating isn't difficult.

I have a Mini-DSP UMIK1 mic that I used with REW. Naturally, the peaks in my RTA readings didn't fall within the 10 bands given. But, JL was nice enough to allow you to MOVE a band (for example, I can change 250 hz to another setting predefined within the TwK). Moving that, and adjusting the Q seemed to help move the peaks out of the RTA readings. I'll have to play more, and I need to tune the subs still.

That's what I know thus far - I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about what I've found or learned. All in all, great experience thus far and VERY clean quality sound.
Thanks for all of your help and please holler with questions. One item to note - there isn't a lot of info out there on the web due to the products being fairly new so I wanted to at least get something out there to folks using or looking at the FiX and/or TwK.

M

Edit: I used the DRC-200 that came with the TwK, not the DRC-100 for the FiX. OEM features work. Steering wheel, fader, OEM EQ etc. I haven't mounted/installed it yet (too cold) but will. I have it tied up in the back with the volumes maxed so I can adjust using the H/U.

 

Be careful not using that load. Once that factory amp over heats it emits a high frequency that will melt tweeters. It was a thing posted in the st forums about the Sony systems.

 

I assume you're referring to the FIX-LSA-4? the only reason I removed it was due to calibration issues. I can certainly add it in again as it worked both ways.

 

Do you have the sync with the large screen? I was able to get a flat constant signal before the amp, just tapped into it and ran an RCA to the helix. I get most vehicle sounds as well as calls, still working on the output for the other tones, need to put a scope on the alert signal. I did it this way because the helix doesn't have volume adjusted eq, so I use the helix volume control. The small sync screen is supposed to be even easier.

I previously had a bit one, very good integration. Fed the front tw/mids and rear channels out of the Sony amp, didn't use the sub output. The good thing about the bit one is it has dynamic eq to adjust for factory volume curves. All volume controls and settings worked perfectly. I'd still be using it if it had a parametric eq and some other advanced options.

 

Do you have the sync with the large screen? I was able to get a flat constant signal before the amp, just tapped into it and ran an RCA to the helix. I get most vehicle sounds as well as calls, still working on the output for the other tones, need to put a scope on the alert signal. I did it this way because the helix doesn't have volume adjusted eq, so I use the helix volume control. The small sync screen is supposed to be even easier.

I am curious to hear how you accomplished this with the audio signals running on the CAN-BUS. Can you share the details?

The Sony amplifier also provides the audio for the Sync and Navigation systems as well as other audio alerts. I would like to hear how you compensated for those as well.

There are a few threads about people being able to re-program the ACM unit but that also requires a bit of re-wiring to account for the audible alerts and the last time I spoke with the individual that posted he was able to do it he was still working the bugs out and it looked like it was going to require re-programming several modules for users with the Sony systems.

 

Ok, I have 2013 F150 FX4, all options. Yes stuck with factory H/U because of its controls. You have to use signal post amp. Also, just use RT and LT door speaker outputs post amp, because they are full range. No need to sum tweeters, because they are full range with bass blockers installed in line. No need to sum sub output, because door speakers are full range. I have Rockford Fosgate 363.3 and it works flawless hooked up with no summing required. Again you have complete full range from LT and RT door speakers. Pics of how I did my midrange and tweets. Sounds good, will be doing pods down the road for tweets. Both are scanspeak, with SI TM 65

 

I do have the Sync with the large screen. It's a can bus H/U so I didn't tap anything pre-amp...it's all out of the amp. I'm stumped as to why I didn't get a full range signal out of the doors (RT and LT mids, plus the Tweeters). I'm not running a Helix, but a JL FiX then optical out to a JL TwK.

 

You could always try using just the RT/LT and recalibrating and see if that makes a difference.

I have mine torn apart at the moment so if I have time I will try hooking some speakers up to the RT/LT outputs to see if they are in fact full range.

 

So I understand the process you linked, I'm going to have 1 high level attached to the FiX, say the sub. I'll run RCA to 3.5 and connect to my laptop - then run a sweep to see what REW plots? I can't do this via the TwK because it's being sent a flat signal from the FiX

 

It is only going see the frequency range supplied by the output. If the mid range isn't supplying a full range output the TWK can't make up for that. This is why you check the outputs individually. This will show you which outputs are full range and which ones are not.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

I have 2013 crew cab fx4 with Sony and 8 inch screen will be doing two way active with helix dsp. I plan to just get signal from Sony amp high levels feed that to my helix. I have way that my buddy does it he's on here with kicker raptor build crew cab using kicker amps with dsp built in.I copy and paste his way. I am torn between using some 20ohm resistors which are super cheap or fix 82 with load adaptors. If your talking little over 300 bucks for that. So the Sony amp see some kinda load.

 

Jowens500 is his name. I like his idea. Grab highlevel signal from rear doors feed that to helix dsp for front components. Then you take the high level signal from fronts and feed that to rear doors so you get all your factory chimes and noises . I am only doing two active upfront with sub. Leaving rear stock doors.

 

A 2013/2014 F150 with sony/myford touch does not use a can-bus signal for audio into the DSP, at least not for music and calls. There is a fixed level flat analog signal coming out of the ACM you can tap into. 4 wires labeled Stereo L +/- & Stereo R +/- on the schematic. However I have not been able to get the navigation tones. I have read where others were able to get these tones out of the alerts signal from the ACM, but I need to do some more probing with a scope. I went this route so I wouldn't need to buy the FiX. I am hoping the sony DSP doesn't store these tones.

As for the Sony outputs into the Fix not giving a full range signal, that is awfully strange as everyone seems to say even just the tweeter signals alone are full range. I can't personally say as I've never looked at the output. I can say that when I had a local shop do my previous install, they used the front tw and mids and the rear channels, no sub input. I did have full range. Your best bet is probably just to read the actual outputs and find out like you're planning.