[Porsche]

On top of all of that, I heard from one of the guys at a get together yesterday that these aren't holding up well to moisture?

curious he said that, bold statement considering there probably aren't many out there

 

[Mullings]

This is one of my peeves with Xcelsus. For some of the speaker products they list only a few of the T/S specs. And most have no specs listed whatsoever, along with no Dimensional Drawings or Measurements that we need for basic fitment and mounting information.

There aren't even any basic recommended Frequency Ranges or Power Handling specs listed other than on the magnet labels of the driver's themselves. It just looks unprofessional and doesn't help to establish the company or their products as a high quality brand with serious products relative to the competition.

It would obviously be very beneficial for both their Dealers/Distributors and End Users to have the Physical Dimensions of the drivers listed in order to verify and accomodate mounting and fitment in specific vehicles.

Dimensions such as:

Overall Diameter (Basket Flange & any Mounting Tabs)
Mounting Hole/Cutout Diameter
Magnet Diameter
Mounting Flange Thickness
Top Mount Depth
Overall Depth
Mounting Hole Circle Diameter & Orientation
Forward Protrusion (such as how far the integrated speaker grill protrudes on the XXM325, etc.)


In addition, I would really like to see the full T/S Parameters, as well as a 0°/15°/30°/45°-axis Frequency Response Graph with Impedance Plot.

This will help both Dealers and End Users choose the proper drivers for their system and the respective Crossover Filters to start with when setting up their system in order to provide adequate protection for the drivers as well as the best possible performance.

IMO, not having this information consistently listed for each product on the website and also in an Owner's Manual that is included in the box comes across as unprofessional and questionable. In every Xcelsus product I've received, there has been no documentation or spec sheet in the box. The only information about the drivers are the impedance, and the recommended Frequency range & Power Handling range on the magnet labels themselves.

Yes, I've been pleased and impressed with all of the Xcelsus products that I've tried, but I've had to pretty much "blindly" purchase these products without knowing pre-purchase if they would in fact be appropriate for my planned system and available mounting locations.

Since forever, this type of information was just expected to be listed and has been available for even basic, inexpensive speakers and drivers. So there's that.


Regarding availability in the U.S., as far as I understood it was formerly through Eddie De Jesus. Supposedly it is now through Joel Maldonado, which is the contact email address that Kevin (Mullings) previously posted.

I emailed Joel regarding pricing and availability of the XXM425, and his emails were extremely brief, with no additional information as to any Distributer or Company information, address, or other contact information...i.e. no professional "signature" in his email, and not even signed with his name, location, a contact phone number, or website/Facebook page, etc...I only became aware of his first name because that's what was shown in the return email contact info.

I asked for all of the relevant information to purchase a pair of the XXM425 in my initial email, but it took multiple back & forth emails to extract all of the relevant information I had asked for, such as if these were "in stock" and ready for immediate shipping, the price per pair, accepted payment types, how soon they could be shipped, and the expected shipping time and charges to my specific ZIP code, etc.

Yeah, I get it. ...in this age of Twitter, Instagram, Text messaging, and casual correspondence, we have become used to very brief, back & forth "snippet" type messages. But when I'm expected to send a substantial payment to some unknown "entity" for a product, I'd like to know just a little bit more information about the "Distributor", Company, or Sales Rep that I'm dealing with, other than just an Email Address.

FYI, Joel quoted the U.S. "per pair" price for the XXM425 as $450 USD + Shipping.

He stated that shipping to the CONUS would "probably be like $25", so $475 total via Zelle, or PayPal (+ fees). At the time, they were "in stock" and available for immediate shipping. No information as to the shipping service used or potential transit time were given. I did not place an order.

The pricing of the sets of XXM325 drivers that I've ordered were substantially less, and these 4" drivers have a relatively simple stamped steel basket with no integrated or separate speaker grills like the XXM325, so I would expect a bit of relative production and end user cost saving there, but with a relative upcharge for the larger diameter overall.

I still feel that the price is reasonable IF their performance is as claimed. But between the somewhat "mystery seller" and the substantial increase in price relative to the XXM325's, I gave them a pass for now. And as I said, T/S parameters, a FR graph, and Dimensions would give much more confidence towards a potential purchase decision.

Sorry for the long rant.


I'm interested to know the Dimensions of these drivers for fitment/mounting as well.

Lol, this is the first time that I’ve read a whole message on here, I totally agree with everything you stated including the pricing. I’ll pass on your concerns to Dawid and make sure that everything is addressed asap since this is all information that they already have. The T/S parameters were sent to me for the very first set of xxm425’s but some changes have been made that would have changed those numbers so I’ll remind him to put the info for the revised version on the website since the speakers are now in production.

 

[Mullings]

curious he said that, bold statement considering there probably aren't many out there

On top of all of that, I heard from one of the guys at a get together yesterday that these aren't holding up well to moisture?

im pretty sure that whoever gave you that info got it from me, and that has nothing to do with the 425’s. I’ll stop sharing my findings while putting these speakers through the ringer with anyone other than the developers because you see how news travels and the story gets a little different as it changes hands.

 

[bbfoto]

On top of all of that, I heard from one of the guys at a get together yesterday that these aren't holding up well to moisture?

This would be somewhat understandable if mounted in typical door locations because there is no spider on these drivers that would otherwise act as a shield for the voice coil and the internal coil gap in the motor, which are both normally located under the spider. Most spiders are also coated or "doped" and repel water.

So the coil and internal metal surfaces in the gap and motor structure may be more susceptible to corrosion or fouling with debris without the spider to help mitigate the intrusion of debris and moisture. We all know that dust and debris will stick to moisture covered surfaces much more so than dry surfaces, just like the paint surface of your car after a morning dew or after rain.

Moisture intrusion can also be caused by condensation...i.e. you have a black car with drivers mounted in the doors that sits outside overnight in colder nighttime temperatures. Then the sun rises and beats down on the black door which quickly heats up the air mass inside the door...condensation may form on the cooler metal parts of the speaker, like an ice-cold beer or soda can on a hot summer day.

I wouldn't expect that any of the soft parts are susceptible to deterioration due to moisture (carbon fiber or magnesium cones, and rubber surrounds, etc). But perhaps the adhesives are susceptible to moisture, especially when combined with extreme heat or cold.

Did they say what the nature of the failures are?

EDIT: I didn't see Kevin's post before I typed my response here.

 

[Mullings]

This would be somewhat understandable if mounted in typical door locations because there is no spider on these drivers that would otherwise act as a shield for the voice coil and the internal coil gap in the motor, which are both normally located under the spider. Most spiders are also coated or "doped" and repel water and dust.

So the coil and internal metal surfaces in the gap and motor structure may be more susceptible to corrosion or fouling with debris without the spider to help mitigate the intrusion of debris and moisture. We all know that dust and debris will stick to moisture covered surfaces much more so than dry surfaces, just like the paint surface of your car after a morning dew or after rain.

I wouldn't expect that any of the soft parts are susceptible to deterioration due to moisture (carbon fiber or magnesium cones, and rubber surrounds, etc). But perhaps the adhesives are susceptible to moisture, especially when combined with extreme heat or cold.

Did they say what the nature of the failures are?

EDIT: I didn't see Kevin's post before I typed my response here.

There was no issues with moisture or even getting the 425’s wet, that was an issue with the xxm875’s hence the redesign that is said to be even better than the old one. If @Truthunter wants to chime in, he didn’t have a problem letting go of his ZR800’s after trying out the old version.

 

[Mad Scientist]

@bbfoto has already outlined many of the concerns regarding the XXM425 as well as the general lack of information Xcelsus provides on their website. Specific to the XXM425, the stamped steel basket is rather odd. It is well known that cast baskets mitigate basket ringing, and are far more damped than stamped steel. So, for a driver intended to cover a frequency range that is the most sensitive to human hearing, this doesn't appear to be a logical choice. Those thin mounting tabs are concerning as well. There are very few high end midranges using stamped steel baskets. Another concern is fit and finish. There have been numerous posts on the XXM325 where excessive adhesive was stringing along the basket. For a high end midrange, this is unacceptable. Dynaudio, SB Acoustics, Purifi, and others have beautiful fit and finish, so it gives off a rather negative impression to the end user when this is sloppy.

As for their website, it's not difficult to add CAD files to provide dimensions, and these should be a given. TS parameters (all of them) should also be provided for folks to determine if the driver is a good fit for their application before it's even bought.

One of the reasons why people respect companies like Bliesma, Purifi, Audio Technology, SB Acoustics, etc is because they provide the information speaker builders are looking for, but they also measure very close to the specs provided by said companies, so you don't have to purchase their drivers and cross your fingers hoping it wasn't made on a Friday at 5pm. Xcelsus doesn't have the brand recognition of the aforementioned companies, so it is on Xcelsus' shoulders to prove their product. Just my $.02

 

[Mullings]

@bbfoto has already outlined many of the concerns regarding the XXM425 as well as the general lack of information Xcelsus provides on their website. Specific to the XXM425, the stamped steel basket is rather odd. It is well known that cast baskets mitigate basket ringing, and are far more damped than stamped steel. So, for a driver intended to cover a frequency range that is the most sensitive to human hearing, this doesn't appear to be a logical choice. Those thin mounting tabs are concerning as well. There are very few high end midranges using stamped steel baskets. Another concern is fit and finish. There have been numerous posts on the XXM325 where excessive adhesive was stringing along the basket. For a high end midrange, this is unacceptable. Dynaudio, SB Acoustics, Purifi, and others have beautiful fit and finish, so it gives off a rather negative impression to the end user when this is sloppy.

As for their website, it's not difficult to add CAD files to provide dimensions, and these should be a given. TS parameters (all of them) should also be provided for folks to determine if the driver is a good fit for their application before it's even bought.

One of the reasons why people respect companies like Bliesma, Purifi, Audio Technology, SB Acoustics, etc is because they provide the information speaker builders are looking for, but they also measure very close to the specs provided by said companies, so you don't have to purchase their drivers and cross your fingers hoping it wasn't made on a Friday at 5pm. Xcelsus doesn't have the brand recognition of the aforementioned companies, so it is on Xcelsus' shoulders to prove their product. Just my $.02

Agreed, the stamped steel was a major concern to me but I was assured that there was no measurable or audible deficiencies with the design. Full disclosure, I destroyed 2 sets after cutting off the tabs to make smaller A pillars, but the frame would bend slightly whenever I torque down the screws to tighten them sending the coil off balance, and had to use the least damaged two at Svr. So I don’t recommend cutting off the mounting flanges, but throw your best $3k pair of midrange speakers at them and you’ll see that these are some of the most natural and lifelike sounding speakers.

 

[bbfoto]

Agreed, the stamped steel was a major concern to me but I was assured that there was no measurable or audible deficiencies with the design. Full disclosure, I destroyed 2 sets after cutting off the tabs to make smaller A pillars, but the frame would bend slightly whenever I torque down the screws to tighten them sending the coil off balance, and had to use the least damaged two at Svr. So I don’t recommend cutting off the mounting flanges, but throw your best $3k pair of midrange speakers at them and you’ll see that these are some of the most natural and lifelike sounding speakers.

I'll just add that the potential basket warp or deformation will be even more likely to cause coil misalignment and rub because of the spider-less design. It's always a game of compromises.

In addition, stamped steel basket resonance usually isn't that much of an issue once the driver is well-secured around the perimeter of its mounting flange to a solid, flat mounting baffle combined with a thin foam or caulk gasket material. Unfortunately, the number of securing points and the type of mounting tabs that are implemented on the XXM425 do not provide for that. And for the asking price, yeah, I would like to see a die-cast or at least a high-quality polymer basket used for these.

 

[preston]

but throw your best $3k pair of midrange speakers at them

Dang it, now where did I leave my $3k mid-ranges laying around ?

 

[Mullings]

I'll just add that the potential basket warp or deformation will be even more likely to cause coil misalignment and rub because of the spider-less design. It's always a game of compromises.

In addition, stamped steel basket resonance usually isn't that much of an issue once the driver is well-secured around the perimeter of its mounting flange to a solid, flat mounting baffle combined with a thin foam or caulk gasket material. Unfortunately, the number of securing points and the type of mounting tabs that are implemented on the XXM425 do not provide for that. And for the asking price, yeah, I would like to see a die-cast or at least a high-quality polymer basket used for these.

I’m not a spokesperson for the company, I’m just another end user that happens to have the ear of the owner of the company, I’ll relay every concern that was mentioned. I now remember the reason for the stamped steel design, any aluminum based material would make the basket much bigger than the intended design size, and testing the stamped steel design didn’t reveal any tonal quality weakness, so he gave it the go ahead.
As for cutting off the tab's and mounting the speaker on the very edge, the basket design has a half roll at the perimeter and the suspension is glued on it, so torquing down too tight will shift the cone slightly and send the coil off balance. That is user error and will be mentioned in the owner manual. These speakers were designed as a drop in replacement, they just happened to outshine the xxm325 which is a remarkable speaker.

 

[Mullings]

Ok gentlemen, here you go, I’m still waiting on the dimensions, if I don’t receive them by tomorrow morning, I’ll take them myself and post.

 

[bbfoto]

Ok gentlemen, here you go, I’m still waiting on the dimensions, if I don’t receive them by tomorrow morning, I’ll take them myself and post.

Thanks Kevin. Can you please download the image file from your email, save it, and then attach or upload the actual image file here? The screenshot from your phone is fairly low res and not ideal.

 

[Porsche]

you should charge for your time kevin, my opinion of course

 

[Mullings]

Here you go

 

[Mad Scientist]

FYI - After some digging, it appears @Truthunter has already provided the measurements on the XXM425 within the below thread (see post 899), but they have been copied and pasted here.

XXM425 dims:
Cutout Diameter: 94.5mm
Mounting Depth: 44mm
Mounting Height: 5mm
OD (Not inc. tabs): 106.5mm
OD w/ Tabs: 129mm

A novices comparison between some pretty sweet midranges...

Thanks for the hyper links Catalyx. Click the BLUE links to take you directly to the review. Focal Utopia TBXP beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange Tonality 4 of 4 Detail 4 of 4 Spaciousness 3 of 4 Harshness ( lack of ) 3.5 of 4 Dynamics 3.5 of 4 Stevens Audio CompNeo HLCD...

www.diymobileaudio.com

EDIT:
@Malato has provided TS parameters on post #901 of the above thread, but again, they've been copied and pasted below. Not sure if these were derived using a DATS or not, but they are below regardless.

XXM425 LMS T/S data:
Revc- 3.2 Ohm
Levc- 18.571 uH
Fo- 111.155 Hz
Sd- 5.359 K mm
Md- 10.000 g
BL- 3.451 T
Qms- 0.617
Qes- 1.125
Qts- 0.398
No- 0.165%
SPLo- 84.2 dB
Vas- 1.395 Ltr
Cms- 342.045u M/N
Mms- 5.994 g
Mmd- 5.768g

 

[Mullings]

Here you go

you should charge for your time kevin, my opinion of course

I’m too nice man, it’s a small company and I would love to see them grow, so I’ll do whatever I can for them.

 

[Porsche]

I’m too nice man, it’s a small company and I would love to see them grow, so I’ll do whatever I can for them.

an you are a smaller company, charge for your efforts, JMO

 

[Spud100]

I absolutely agree about the unprofessional lack of information with the product.
I was taken aback when I received a full component set to find that there was very little printed information on the outside of the boxes, then to discover that there was no Owner Manual inside the carton.
I then contacted the Australian site, crickets after several weeks.

At a minimum dimensional, electrical / sonic specs and frequency response specs should be easily accessible on their assorted websites around the world.

Karma can manage it so it is not rocket science is it Xcelsus?

 

[bbfoto]

FYI - After some digging, it appears @Truthunter has already provided the measurements on the XXM425 within the below thread (see post 899), but they have been copied and pasted here.

XXM425 dims:
Cutout Diameter: 94.5mm
Mounting Depth: 44mm
Mounting Height: 5mm
OD (Not inc. tabs): 106.5mm
OD w/ Tabs: 129mm

A novices comparison between some pretty sweet midranges...

Thanks for the hyper links Catalyx. Click the BLUE links to take you directly to the review. Focal Utopia TBXP beryllium dome tweeter paired with 3.5wm midrange Tonality 4 of 4 Detail 4 of 4 Spaciousness 3 of 4 Harshness ( lack of ) 3.5 of 4 Dynamics 3.5 of 4 Stevens Audio CompNeo HLCD...

www.diymobileaudio.com

EDIT:
@Malato has provided TS parameters on post #901 of the above thread, but again, they've been copied and pasted below. Not sure if these were derived using a DATS or not, but they are below regardless.

XXM425 LMS T/S data:
Revc- 3.2 Ohm
Levc- 18.571 uH
Fo- 111.155 Hz
Sd- 5.359 K mm
Md- 10.000 g
BL- 3.451 T
Qms- 0.617
Qes- 1.125
Qts- 0.398
No- 0.165%
SPLo- 84.2 dB
Vas- 1.395 Ltr
Cms- 342.045u M/N
Mms- 5.994 g
Mmd- 5.768g

Thanks, mate. I completely forgot about Ryan graciously posting that info in that thread. 😊

@Mullings But do we know if that particular sample that you loaned to Ryan was a Final Production Version???

EDIT: Ryan stated that it was Pre-Production Sample, so there might be some differences in the actual specs. Kevin, do you know if anything has change from that prepro sample to the final production version?

 

[Porsche]

xcelus speakers will be having a price increase with all these demands you guys want, brochures, etc cost money