I have seen people including PsSound on youtube run 4" mids as low as 180Hz. I personally would prefer a little bit larger driver for that, I have ran my 5.25" Satori MR-13P down to 150 and was shocked how good they sounded as long as you aren't trying to replicate "da club". I was removing my stereo for a new car and was driving around with just the mids running and got tired of the tinniness so I started dropping the x-over and was amazed how good they sounded. People talk about running sub-less, I started thinking about running woofer less ha ha.

That being said I usually run my mids to about 275Hz, and have never felt that the vocals dropped for lower voices. In fact I am very pleased with how the overall bass sits on top of my dash for the most part (very low notes do tend to migrate lower, its actually an affect I kind of like, lower notes are ---- lower !). But this is more for true bass, vocals still seem to stay solid.

Anyway just some personal experience not sure if it helps you. If you haven't used newer generation small format drivers you might be surprised how well they do.

 

Hehe... I do run wooferless... well midbass woofer anyway... I run a pair of tens, one under each front seat... nice choice of drivers there 🥰

 

When I first started getting involved in the forum I started this thread. Probably some things pertaining to your question in it. M

Crossing sail mounted 4” midrange/ widebands directly to...

Hopefully some OGs on here will jump on this thread, I’d like to progress into some detailed information on phase matching various drivers and such, as phase is the main reason I like widebands so much. So, Rav4, JL900/5, Rockford DSR-1, fountek fr88ex tweeterless, Dayton rs180-4, Dayton...

www.diymobileaudio.com

 

Maybe something in here as well

Really would like to decide sooner than later. Photos of...

I asked this in a thread along with a lot of other questions. I want a specific post to draw direct attention to the question. I’m gonna have free time for fabrication in about two weeks and would really like to order soon. There are some really interesting looking coincidence drivers that could...

www.diymobileaudio.com

 

Ahem... and they don’t compromise the view from the drivers seat, they look huge as this picture is taken from the middle of the back seat 😂 they are 8l enclosures with satori mw16p drivers in each one, they don’t mind getting loud if I want to play Paul van dyk as loud as I like 😎

 

This guy isn't a good example. He's bat sh!t crazy with his installs

Ge0

 

Dumdum thinks the rest of us are just dicking around and not taking this stuff seriously.

 

Nah, I admire everyone doing car audio, I learn from everything and everyone...

I am a touch more extreme than most I give you that lol... I think you mean I take it more serious than most car audio nuts 😂 I’m a nutty nut! 🤣😂

 

Here's a link to another thread I posted yesterday. I'm looking at a couple of others but they're going to be similar to these in terms of specs. So, is the consensus to cross them at 150Hz or thereabouts? They'll be working with some woofers in the 8" range but again, way down on the bottom of the doors. My calves definitely enjoy the sound the most... 😂

The drivers I'm looking at

 

Here's a link to another thread I posted yesterday. I'm looking at a couple of others but they're going to be similar to these in terms of specs. So, is the consensus to cross them at 150Hz or thereabouts? They'll be working with some woofers in the 8" range but again, way down on the bottom of the doors. My calves definitely enjoy the sound the most... 😂

The drivers I'm looking at

I’ve replied to your thread 👍🏼 If you can cross the 8 upto 300 you’ll be better...

 

Ideally it's best to have as much of the full male and female vocal range be reproduced by a single driver that provides a very smooth and linear amplitude response in its passband, both on- and off-axis and at your listening position from the Left & Right side.

In addition, it's ideal to at least have all of the frequencies that are above the Schroeder Frequency in your car (usually in the range of ~260Hz-300Hz) played by midrange drivers that can cover as much of the vocal range as possible. The Schroeder Frequency is basically where the lower frequency acoustic wavelengths in your vehicle transition to being pressure-based and modal.

Here's a good video discussing the Schroeder Frequency. Note that this discussion is aimed at the response in typical rooms, not vehicles, but the principles are the same.

Schroeder Frequency – Acoustic Fields

The source and direction of these lower frequencies are located by our ears/brain via phase and timing, or "ITD"...IOW by the differences in distance and arrival time between Left & Right. Frequencies above ~2kHz are localized more so by L vs R Amplitude or Intensity differences, or "IID", and less and less via time differences between L & R, due to the fixed physical distance between our two ears.

You'll see quite a few of the top SQ competitors using larger midrange drivers up high, i.e. 4.5" to 7" drivers aimed relatively on-axis, or in a location and aiming that provides linear & smooth response between both the direct on-axis amplitude response and the reflected off-axis response.

There are always trade-offs, and at least one thing you have to consider when using larger midrange/midwoofer drivers is the point at which they begin to beam significantly and where you cross them over to your tweeters. The mounting location and aiming of drivers can change or influence the perceived beaming range, and/or direct vs. reflected response.

When you are using midrange and midbass drivers that are separated in physical distance and/or where the crossover lies somewhere within the vocal region (IOW the two drivers are dividing the lower & upper vocal range at some point), the summation and phase within the crossover region between the two drivers is extremely important, as is the directivity of the two drivers...the dispersion should be as similar as possible. Again, consider the beaming points of each driver and the pressure-based modal response vs the higher wave/ray/reflective response. You can also use controlled directivity to "steer" the imaging cues and resulting soundstage.

If you set up and tune your system so that the midbass and midrange have similar dispersion/directivity and Smooth Frequency & Phase response in the Crossover region, their placement or location become less important to a degree...your ears and brain will not be able to locate or perceive the drivers themselves as being being physically "low" or two separate sources.

A balanced, smooth, and blended response from your physically high tweeters to the mids & midbass will help to raise EVERYTHING to an overall higher perceived soundstage.

This is why it is important to have a very Balanced L&R FR that is as smooth and even as possible from Low to High using a generally accepted Target Curve. The shape of the particular Target Curve determines the overall perceived response, but it's important that the FR ultimately be smooth and even, without any major deviations.

The actual shape of a particular Target Curve is not "set in stone", it is just a Visual Guide to help us achieve An Overall Smooth & Balanced Response throughout the frequency range. This smooth response ultimately allows ALL of the individual Left & Right drivers and the subwoofer(s) to "become one coherent source" for each Left & Right side. Ultimately, the speakers themselves should disappear when you get all of these attributes dialed-in, and the full frequency range of the vocals should be perceived as coming from the same position in the soundstage.

 

Ideally it's best to have as much of the full male and female vocal range be reproduced by a single driver that provides a very smooth and linear amplitude response in its passband, both on- and off-axis and at your listening position from the Left & Right side.

In addition, it's ideal to at least have all of the frequencies that are above the Schroeder Frequency in your car (usually in the range of ~260Hz-300Hz) played by midrange drivers that can cover the as much of the vocal range as possible. The Schroeder Frequency is basically where the lower acoustic wavelengths in your vehicle transition to being pressure-based and modal.

Here's a good video discussing the Schroeder Frequency. Note that this discussion is aimed at the response in typical rooms, not vehicles, but the principles are the same.

Schroeder Frequency – Acoustic Fields

The source and direction of these lower frequencies are located by our ears/brain via phase and timing, or "ITD", IOW by the differences in distance and arrival time between Left & Right. Frequencies above ~2kHz are localized more so by L/R Amplitude or Intensity differences, or "IID", and less and less via time differences between L & R, due to the fixed physical distance between our two ears.

You'll see quite a few of the top SQ competitors using larger midrange drivers up high, i.e. 4.5" to 7" drivers aimed relatively on-axis, or in a location and aiming that provides linear & smooth response between both the direct on-axis amplitude response and the reflected off-axis response.

There are always trade-offs, and at least one thing you have to consider when using larger midrange/midwoofer drivers is the point at which they begin to beam significantly and where you cross them over to your tweeters. The mounting location and aiming of drivers can change or influence the perceived beaming range, and/or direct vs. reflected response.

When you are using midrange and midbass drivers that are separated in physical distance and/or where the crossover lies somewhere within the vocal region (IOW the two drivers are dividing the lower & upper vocal range at some point), the summation and phase within the crossover region between the two drivers is extremely important, as is the directivity of the two drivers...the dispersion should be as similar as possible. Again, consider the beaming points of each driver and the pressure-based modal response vs the higher wave/ray/reflective response. You can also use controlled directivity to "steer" the imaging cues and resulting soundstage.

If you set up and tune your system so that the midbass and midrange have similar dispersion/directivity and Smooth Frequency & Phase response in the Crossover region, their placement or location become less important to a degree...your ears and brain will not be able to locate or perceive the drivers themselves as being being physically "low" or separated.

A balanced, smooth, and blended response from your physically high tweeters to the mids & midbass will help to raise EVERYTHING to an overall higher perceived soundstage.

This is why it is important to have a very Balanced L&R FR that is as smooth and even as possible from Low to High using a generally accepted Target Curve. The shape of the particular Target Curve determines the overall perceived response, but it's important that the FR ultimately be smooth and even, without any major deviations.

The actual shape of a particular Target Curve is not "set in stone", it is just a Visual Guide to help us achieve An Overall Smooth Response throughout the frequency range. This smooth response ultimately allows ALL of the individual Left & Right drivers and the subwoofer(s) to "become one coherent source" for each Left & Right side. Ultimately, the speakers themselves should disappear when you get all of these attributes dialed-in, and all of the vocals should be perceived as coming from the same position in the soundstage.

You nailed what I was trying to get across. The attempt to avoid separating vocals between multiple speakers and/locations. Some of the rest of the information is a bit over my head but I will try to read up on it. Ultimately, my permanent system will be installed by a professional but I figure that the more educated I am, the better we can communicate. I want to be able to truly grasp what they're telling me as well as to be able to explain what I want in the clearest way for them. Thanks for stating my point more clearly; you cut through the ramblings of an amateur and made something cohesive out of them... 😂

 

I like my little FR59EXE in pods in the A pillars, slightly above eye level for me. Aimed pretty much diagonal and on axis. Crossed at 300+ on 24dB LR filter, they keep most vocals way up in the middle of the glass and most bass centers on the top of the dash. My Alpine component 6x9's are band passed from 80-300 on the same slope, they play fantastic and will dig further down than my door treatments can handle. But no need, the little subs fill in beautifully.

I would love to see about moving the stage further "out" - this seems to be EQ related as well as position. Tips and ideas?

 

I like my little FR59EXE in pods in the A pillars, slightly above eye level for me. Aimed pretty much diagonal and on axis. Crossed at 300+ on 24dB LR filter, they keep most vocals way up in the middle of the glass and most bass centers on the top of the dash. My Alpine component 6x9's are band passed from 80-300 on the same slope, they play fantastic and will dig further down than my door treatments can handle. But no need, the little subs fill in beautifully.

I would love to see about moving the stage further "out" - this seems to be EQ related as well as position. Tips and ideas?

Distance ‘to’ stage is related to timing, phase (both need to be perfect... and I don’t mean just time alignment, I mean between freqs in the midrange as an example) and the position of the mids, depth of stage is down to the recording, some have depth in bucket loads, other recordings very little I find

 

Okay, I don't have time to try and do a diagram but here are a few pictures. Let's open it up and you guys tell me how you would make the most of the space available.

Center - Left - Right Corners of Dash

Center Space Available

What I do NOT want to do is this:

Or Worse This:

I have nothing against pods but I got over custom sails & pillars long ago. Again, my objective is to keep all the vocals coming from the same area (not necessarily location but where you head tells you they're coming from). If that makes sense... 😂

 

Okay, I don't have time to try and do a diagram but here are a few pictures. Let's open it up and you guys tell me how you would make the most of the space available.

Center - Left - Right Corners of Dash
View attachment 286019

Center Space Available
View attachment 286020

What I do NOT want to do is this: View attachment 286021

Or Worse This: View attachment 286023

I have nothing against pods but I got over custom sails & pillars long ago. Again, my objective is to keep all the vocals coming from the same area (not necessarily location but where you head tells you they're coming from). If that makes sense... 😂

I actually like the mids in the dash firing into the glass. You get reflected on axis sound ...bad description probably...but it is far better than mids firing across the dash at each other like most oem a pillars.

Ita


Those Founteks have like 1-1.5 mm excursion, they’re ok at 300hz?

They are fine at the levels I listen at. I prefer "sound quality" loud. They could go louder but honestly I don't play for anyone outside the truck. I tested with a wide range of vocal stuff as well to make sure and avoid harshness.

 

I have measured somewhat and I see a lot of 85-90 dB levels, that's fine. I go loud enough to cover up road noise. Back in the day aka the 90's I had systems capable of 120-130, that was LOUD. I don't need nor want that anymore.

 

“I have nothing against pods but I got over custom sails & pillars long ago. Again, my objective is to keep all the vocals coming from the same area (not necessarily location but where you head tells you they're coming from). If that makes sense... 😂“

What’s your beef with pillars/sails? I tested different above dash locations with my founteks in pvc caps before building my GS25 and lpg sails, and the overall response was better at sail location. You have stock dash locations that are designed for a decent response I believe. What would you do if you didn’t have those stock locations?

 

As I said, I have absolutely nothing against using pods or mounting speakers on the pillars/sails. But it's not something I want to do right now. I'm going to be spending a lot of time south of the border and even if I didn't want to go stealth for its own sake, attracting attention to your vehicle is not a good idea. My cars will be in locked garages, inside private communities, with private security when I'm home. But it's a car; and the whole point is to drive it to and from locations you have no control over.