I'm trying this first, which I don't know if I get what the polarity thing is all about. I skipped that and just did some of what he suggested. Trying to think about what tone and stage...I think I did up to 12-13, without the polarity switching. Which I didnt quite understand why, or how. I thought drivers should be polarized to push out/?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/379331-post1.html

 

The signal is AC, reverse the polarity of the wires and you put that driver 180 degrees out of phase. If both drivers are wired the same, it doesn't matter at all.

Another trick some people use (it might have been Erin who posted this method). You can swap the polarity of one driver, then instead of using SPL measurements to detect the highest output, you are looking for the lowest output. Once you have the settings that give the lowest output at that frequency, swap the wires on that driver back and it'll be in phase.

 

So by checking each driver and tweeter as you install using a battery and or compare for more output within a pair... to check sound or movement of the driver, you would not need to go through all the polarity steps listed in the instructions....
Thats what my installer did with each driver. He did the battery test. Not sure if he was able to see the tweeters move, or if he did a comparison for the higher output between a pair, but, i'm gonna go with him getting it right

Besides,
I think, since we are using TA (at some point), putting drivers out of phase is unnecessary.

 

I'm not sure there is ever a reason (at least with TA features) to wire a driver 180 degrees out of phase with it's matching pair. If the driver is labeled properly, hook it up as indicated. If it's not labeled and you don't know which side is positive and which is negative, the battery test can be helpful.

 

TA/delay for a sub is different. I have read that you might want to add delay to the sub to allow the fronts to perform without the sub "overlay" and snuffing of the front.

But I think for most purposes and most importtantly we are talking about main front components. If TA can be done with measuring that, why not. but not sure if it can.

 

Phil, for sure, if you're setting time delays for your own personal system, and you want to compensate for asymmetrical placement of you and your speakers within your car, then absolutely, measure the delta distance, and it will definitely help a lot of areas of the sound.

But if you're charging the public, who come to you with the expectation that you can provide for them a service that they don't have the time/experience/knowledge/expertise, etc. to perform themselves, and you're also reinforcing this perception of being an "expert" at this very type of thing, system optimization, then in that case, I feel like you should use a little more accurate, repeatable results/methodology.

Especially taking into consideration that at higher frequencies, the wavelengths are so short that the error factor present in common methods of physical measurement could be enough to misalign the drivers. Or maybe I'm crazy, maybe these shops around where I live that charge twice per hour what I charge and use automated systems like the bit tune (which I have at work, collecting dust), maybe they're the real experts, and I've wasted all this time researching, experimenting and learning what it is that these systems like the bit tune do, and what they don't. Maybe these types of things are "good enough".

Maybe, but I don't think so. Wow, I kinda went off on a tangent there. Sorry about that.

 

no.
I will be using the mic to do my measures. I just think its a good way to get a ballpark to get things in the range. But I don't claim to be anything in regard to system optimizer or tuner.

 

I'm sure you're probably better at it than SOME guys who charge for it. Seriously. Not all, that's for sure, but some are really ripping people off in my opinion, but that's a topic for another thread! Keep up the good work, you'll be amazed how much it all starts to make more and more sense the more and more you work with this stuff.....

 

I know you're right. I ran into a couple of those installers when researching for my gear to be installed.

The installer I'm working with now knows the core yet has little no experience with my DSP, or any/many others, so we are learning together. Which I prefer anytime, vs someone handing me the key and telling me the car is done, and I come to hear the sound is nowhere near optimal.

All of them claimed they would tune it, and none mentioned anything regarding the time or other price involved.

 

THANK YOU Patrick! I guess I don't have to exchange my USB Dynaudio UMMK6 mic for the EMMK version. Cool beans!
also thanks to Kris for redirecting/confirming


Now, what are some best methods for tuning the EQ for a front 2way running 3SIXTY.3 ?

A bit tongue in cheek, but I am a bit new to sound frequency measures translating to liking what I hear. I know what sounds good, but I'm new to the translation of that on a DSP like the 3Sixty3.
I remember subjectively tuning a 10 or more, maybe 16 band EQ on a piece of hardware, and I would do it just for the sake of that track sounding better, but not as a preset choice of 4 to be pretty much perm in a car once set. I have all the sound files and sweeps of Hz....

I don't really know what to adjust about those test sounds. Its not like I will tune to make those test sound to sound better, no, I know thats not what they are for.
So I used them to normalize, and get a flat signal. Also helped to get some "theoretical" cross over points. I say theoretical as MB Quart QSD 6.5" is able to play 35-280Hz, but it is factory crossed HP with the passive crossover at 240Hz. But you hear people cross them off at 70Hz. I tried the lower Hz noise tests at around 70Hz, but found them to cause more vibrations(my door is fully deadened) up until 90Hz. So, maybe thats better?

Same with the tweeters. They are factory at 2400Hz. I have heard people set their MBQ at 3500/12db, 2400/24, 4000/12db, etc. I have also heard other tweeters xover at 800Hz. So again...a super wide range to play with....where does one start to lower the variables, and then edge out if need be, or if it makes improvements?

 

Now, what are some best methods for tuning the EQ for a front 2way running 3SIXTY.3 ?

A bit tongue in cheek, but I am a bit new to sound frequency measures translating to liking what I hear. I know what sounds good, but I'm new to the translation of that on a DSP like the 3Sixty3.
I remember subjectively tuning a 10 or more, maybe 16 band EQ on a piece of hardware, and I would do it just for the sake of that track sounding better, but not as a preset choice of 4 to be pretty much perm in a car once set. I have all the sound files and sweeps of Hz....

I don't really know what to adjust about those test sounds. Its not like I will tune to make those test sound to sound better, no, I know thats not what they are for.
So I used them to normalize, and get a flat signal. Also helped to get some "theoretical" cross over points. I say theoretical as MB Quart QSD 6.5" is able to play 35-280Hz, but it is factory crossed HP with the passive crossover at 240Hz. But you hear people cross them off at 70Hz. I tried the lower Hz noise tests at around 70Hz, but found them to cause more vibrations(my door is fully deadened) up until 90Hz. So, maybe thats better?

Same with the tweeters. They are factory at 2400Hz. I have heard people set their MBQ at 3500/12db, 2400/24, 4000/12db, etc. I have also heard other tweeters xover at 800Hz. So again...a super wide range to play with....where does one start to lower the variables, and then edge out if need be, or if it makes improvements?

For a 2 way start with the sub and mid crossed ~60hz Put the sub on the steepest slope you have and use some foam or diy bracing to cure the buzzing at 60-90, deaden the door some more if you have to or mount the driver on a 3/4" mdf ring adapter. Start by crossing the mids and tweets ~3khz, 4th order slopes all round. Make sure the timing is right between the sub and mid and mid to tweet.

Sub Eq
With your sub on say a 6th order slope @ 60, play the sub only and use the PN tracks 20-100hz. Use the eq on the sub channel to dial in a 15db drop from 30-100. Once you have done this cut everything on the sub eq, above 100 to the max.

Mid Eq
Now play the left mid only and measure from 40 ha to 5 khz. Repeat with right side. Now use the mid eq to balance L&R. Go back and measure 80-100 hz first sub only and then both mids only. Set 80 hz from the mid at the same level as the sub and 100 hz 3 db louder than the sub.

With both mids playing, you're looking at a 3 db roll off from 100-200 hz and then flat to 1khz. From 1.25khz you're looking for a 3db/oct roll off till ~5khz. Beyond 5 khz cut all the frequencies on the mid eq to the max.

Tweet Eq
Repeat the above for the tweeters using PN from ~1.6 kh and up. Aim for a 2-3 db rise from 1.6-5khz and then a 2db/oct roll off above 5. Cut the eq on the tweets below 1.6khz to max.

Now play all drivers on one side measure and repeat for the other side. See if you need any L/R tweaking. Take a listen, how does it sound. This will give you a starting point for tuning the final bit by ear. You need to get it to measure right before you can start tuning to get it sounding right.

 

Oh yeah, one more thing, JohnM has released a beta version of REW with a frequency dependent window in the windowing options. Doesn't cost anything to experiment.

This is different than the last beta version I mentioned on this forum, that one was the psychoacoustic smoothing option that used a frequency dependent window, but behind the scenes.

This is an actual type of window in the window options.

 

Phil, the interface on the left is the one I was talking about.....the M-Audio

 

Yes I saw it online. Thanks very much for it. I will see how much timei I have and hassle in exchanging it. But with Patrick and Kriszilla point out an alternate option, I don't know any reason why it would be a easier or necessary to switch back to a xrl/? standard mic din for the TA/ unless its for something else as well, or/?.

 

I don't recall if I mentioned here but for newbs like myself learning REW and with that brand new awesome full-boat DSP installed, I found Kyle Ragsdale's extensive YouTube videos indispensable. They go full boat from start to finish on tuning using basic principles and measuring, from initial crossovers through time alignment, phase and EQ of individual drivers, pairs, groups and staging. I still refer back to them frequently. Highly recommended.

I playlisted them: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8DsRfMp9q4az_gei9C27aRyUIUvMIMO0

Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Thanks Babs!!!!!!
will check that out!!

These are the posts that will get us closer! We can only try from experience. Experience is the strongest knowledge....I think Albert said something like that.

 

Maybe even using 2 mics would solve it? A cheap basic calibration mic (much like the ones for Home Theaters you can get for $10-20 would be another input option? I think those work via a mini 3.5mm TS phone connection. You basic PC mic input connection.

 

Ok guys, I'm excited about this, on Sunday the 19 I'll be attending this training event in Washington. I'll try to take lots of notes and document and remember all I can, so I can share any new knowledge/techniques.

 

Excellent! Video notes would be great. I'm sure there can be some edits made to the content by the talented folks here.

 

I think this post right here is even a great start....

You can ignore the "how to"..if you already set your gains with a DD1
but informative none the less..
I have already set my gains, but find the tones to download useful.

How to Properly Set Your Gains (Gain Tutorial)

 

Sunday, the other training, specifically the system tuning one, although the I'm sure I'll pick up some new stuff regarding fabrication as well. For many many many years, in fact to this day, when people think of a good installer, what they often mean is a good fabricator. Very few installers seem to put effort into learning acoustics and system optimization, but many of them want to learn how to build a volcano shaped sub enclosure! I'm trying to break the mold, so to speak.

 

I'm not able to calibrate the sound card in REW with the USB mic/ UMM6.

Wonder what the workaround to this might be? Same sw as for the TA? Maybe I should check that HomeImpulse out?

I'd like to do this so I don't have all these low audibles the mic picks up without the cal.

You can see my plots on the 2014 highlander install log...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2697825-post34.html

 

I'd like to do this so I don't have all these low audibles the mic picks up without the cal.
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Phil, what do you mean by "low audibles"? If you're referring to the presence of low frequency information that is showing up on the RTA trace that you can't really hear, kinda like low freq. noise, then this is just a phenomenon that is part of the reality of acoustic measurements. There is always low freq noise all around us that we don't really, consciously "hear", but it's there. That will not be taken out of your measurements by performing a soundcard calibration. A soundcard calibration is nothing more than compensating for the soundcard's deviation in its own freq. response. It in now way lessens the amount of low freq. noise picked up and ultimitely put into your measurement.

My apologies if you were referring to something else.

 

Peruse this webpage..........

UMIK-1 setup with REW

in there is this bit of info:

The UMIK is automatically calibrated by REW for sound level (this information is in the calibration file). You will want to set your system to generate a suitable signal level, though. Click on the Signal Generator button and set the parameters like this (the top frequency parameter, "24,000" in this example, isn't relevant, you can ignore it):

 

No...that was it. Thanks!
I didn't realize the mic was as sensitive as picking up the metropolis humm of the environment!

So I take it a sound card calibration is not super critical? I still wish I could do it....if there is a way to do it with the USB mic.

 

Calibrating the Soundcard

calibrating soundcard is not required when using a usb mic.........

Calibrating the Soundcard
This step is not required when using a USB microphone as the input, skip directly to Check levels

calibrating the soundcard is checking the input/output of the soundcard since your not using the soundcards input (using a usb mic instead) it doesnt compute.....

 

ahh, good point!
Well then...."Check levels" it is.

thank you

 

Yeah, exactly, in REW, there is no way to differentiate which part of the calibration is the soundcard's input, and which part is the soundcard's output. It's a closed loop.

If you're using a USB mic, then you're basically using two soundcards, one would be the computer's built in soundcard, which you're using as your output to feed the SUT.

The other would be the A/D converter & usb codec inside the body of the USB mic.

The USB mic IS basically a soundcard with no outputs and it's only input is acoustical.

That's why, when using a USB mic, there are sometimes problems with trying to do certain things with certain programs. Mostly having to do with timing and the input and output digital circuits not being on the same clock. Also, with a USB mic, I think you can't do the things in REW that require a loopback connection? I might be wrong about that last part.