One layer of ensolite is so thin, its pretty much just going to reduce high frequency stuff.

ive actually ripped all my ensolite out in favor of open cell foam from the fabric store, and luxury liner from Ant.

 

Was the difference after the luxery liner night and day.????

 

I don't think it is totally useless...but I do admit that I do not get the same "wow" effects some of the other members describe. It does reduce the sound of door panel vibration.

 

so should i just use a whole bunch of deadener? i'm thinking two layers on my quarter panels (as that seems to be the worst spot by far). and one on the whole floor and one on the hatch floor.

 

I would use open cell foam anywhere you KNOW won't get hit by water... Ensolite is good to use in doors, or areas that might get wet. You should be able to get 1/2" for about a buck a foot at the local Joanne's fabrics.

 

I would contact ant about his products, both open and closed cell foam.
Ask where they work the best.
Then go from there.
my .02

 

yea good idea.

wasn't there a guy, i think named (rick) who did up a scion tc and deadened the crap out of it?

 

The ensolite cut down a ton of road noise for me coming through the doors.

 

I would PM FoxPro5 about his Vertex Barrier Pad....i did a review on it as well

 

Same ?? night n day ??

 

SecondSkin, owned by Ant (DIYMA)

 

Just make sure you understand what you're wanting to do. That will dictate the product you're going to buy.

For example, you wouldn't want to buy one layer of deadener and one layer of ensolite to stop rattles, you know? The rattles are due to flex and ensolite won't help that at all.

I'm sure you know all this, but I notice sometimes that people aren't really sure of what exactly the product does and just assume it will meet the needs of a specific task when it wasn't designed to do so.

 

i am pretty certain a layer of mat, maybe 2 in the important spots will kill what little rattles i have. i am more concerned with just killing some road noise. i'm not toooo concerned with weight but i don't want to add hundreds of pounds to my car. i also, just like anybody want to get my moneys worth.

 

So, what is it you're looking to accomplish in the end?

Ensolite and the like are for ambient noise (at least in my definition). For structural rigidity (ie: flex, rattles) go with deadener and follow the "knock and listen" test.

I actually did notice a difference when using ensolite, but my doors were also HEAVILY deadened before that went on.

 

looking to just kill the minor rattles and vibrations i have, and quiet the car down inside a little bit. so far i did my doors with edead v1se2, no foam in the doors yet. just want to continue deadening and dampening. i did notice a huge difference after doing the doors.

 

yea last time i bought deadener i bought Edead v1se2. it worked well but everybody is saying raamat or secondskin is the way to go so i think i will buy a roll of raamat and some sort of foam to absorb some road noise.

 

I would do as many layers of deadener as it takes, you can afford, or will fit on your door without breaking the hinges. :laughing:

Then add a layer of closed cell over that. Also, put a layer of closed cell inside the door behind the speaker.

 

i might add one more layer of mat to the doors and a layer of foam to them as well but i already did the doors for the most part. want to continue onto the rest now. i think i'll buy a roll of raamat and buy a few of these... https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/...LnEdLRilbxqxZ+uoUko5dSJb8E8GGebK/4xU9BNGksXIUNCEO8EFERr0FAIJb4/Moc4wF8 mbxvygJI
cut them up and stick them where i think could use it. lol

 

Actually, I am going to hate giving this company credit, but in my TA I used eDead V4, which is 1/4" closed cell foam with a pre-applied adhesive layer.

I must say applying it to either freshly applied Second Skin damplifier or properly prepped stock panels did wonders in either a single layer on all floor surfaces, or in my case I use a layer on the inner door itself as well as layer on the door panel (so it is doubled up) and I didn't have to apply any mat to the inner door at all... I may add that the inner door is all composite material, so it does not have a lot of the resonance issues that sheet metal may have...

All I can say is that in my application I know it made the entire install much more solid, and the car has absoloutly no rattles or resonances even at extreme SPL levels with the windows up (and I have 2 12" TC2+ subs)... Outside the car you can barely tell the type of SPL going on inside the car, windows up of course, and that is at all frequencies, not just bass...

Comparing this to my previous install, with no deadening, with only 2 10" subs, and about 1/4 the total wattage, my previous system could be heard outside of the car with ease (with the windows up of course), and inside the car the midbass was thin, the sub-bass was lacking a bit and there was a ton of rattles and vibrations from everything...

Just something to consider...

 

Ensolite isint useless it just needs to be used in conjunction with other items to have proper effects. Ensolite based on design and thickness can only absorb higher frequencies, this is fine, but thicker material is needed for lower frequencies, how low for what thickness, i'm not sure of.....

Beleive i've mentioned this before to you...

I get pretty damn good results with my tC, 2 Raammatt layers inside door, outside metal. Cover entire surface with closed cell foam, 2 more layers directly behind driver mounted in door, Also single layer of 1 1/4" acoustic Eggshell foam, from PE.

In Rear hatch areas and floor, just beat around with a rubber mallet or your fist, listen to the noise, add more where it needs it.

Directly behind front seats, quarter panels are the worst areas for the tC and tail light areas, did the above to it as well, but flipped a second layer of eggshell and glued together for ~2" of just eggshell for roadnoises, and any other areas where the layers could be used without water issues, and allowance for 2" of acoustic treatment with, a single layer of eggshell worked great in tail light and hatch door. So i used eggshell in outside door skin, above water drainage lines 6", inside door cavities behind and around driver mount rear Quarter panels, channel above rear wheels, tail light areas, inside hatch clasp assembly, etc. Also eggshell on inner metal between the surface and the door panel adds a cushion layer for the panel, as a vibration decoupler.

I'd deaden more before you think about ensolite, but thats just me, i plan to add more myself, atleast another layer if not more alone to the doors, may actually be able to run majority of my music without a sub, have tried it a few times yet lack the lowest octaves.

 

ok thanks. i will follow that advice. the reason i am asking about foam now is so that i can use the mat and the foam at the same time. i'd rather not rip the whole car apart several times. i wanna do it right the first time. i don't wanna do a layer and then say "**** i still want it a lot quieter". i want to do it once. thats why i am asking. i want to buy enough of everything i need and do this in a weekend. take the interior apart, apply everything, then put it all back together in two days.

 

Doin it in a weekend should be hard at all, i had my car ripped apart during build for almost 2 months, drove around with no rear seat for almost 2 weeks lol. I thought i had plenty of deadener, and acoustic treatments, which i still think i do, easily for a majority of people. I need more than deadener simply to kill some of the heaving my metal is doing on low passeges, but i'm sure theres better things for that. But i'm also using a 50hz 24db xover point and flipping off the sub and really not missing much is a nice point to add, output wise depending on content.

So overbuild, so you don't need to go back in the future and add........Thats what i'm figuring out, and for the car 2 layers just dosent do it.

 

thats my problem, i have never done this before and want to order enough of the right stuff and do it in 2 days. this my my daily driver and will NOT drive the car around in pieces all apart.

my doors are done other than maybe just adding one more layer of mat just for the hell of it, and then some foam between the plastic and metal panels. i did foam behind the mid already, and the door is sealed off and deadened with what i would say is enough mat. just want to do the floor, hatch area and quarter panels, but i want to get enough and the right stuff and just bang it out in a 2 day weekend, then not have to go back and add more later.

 

Actually, my b-pillars are a big trouble spot for me.

I got all this in recently and should have one helluva weekend:

 

The TC is a tough car to make quite, I know as spent a few hundred hours on mine but I do not do things like most would like fill every single body cavity(frame rails, pillars, sills, whole area around the rear wheel wells, etc with $600 worth of imported expanding foam.

Because my car was going to be an audio comp car as well as run national events in autocross and time trials I had to keep weight to a minimum. I bonded aluminum channel to the outer skin of the doors and sides by the back seat and all the way to the hatch area. Then I used strips of mat, vertically, to cover about half the total surface area, and then covered it all with ensolite and then a layer of 2" acoustical foam. Very low weight, very effective, very much work and a fair amount of expense!!!

I also removed all factory deadening, installed a CF roof, removed every inch of excess wiring, etc..... stock the car weighed around 2950 lbs, I got it down to 2675 with roll cage and a system that made a 138.4db average, on a music track, for 2 minutes and there was not one single vibration, resonance, could barely tell it was playing from outside the car.

Ensolite is not intended to be a single product that will cure all ills, only a rare few of us ever consider the levels of deadening some of use here will want to achieve and this is supposed to be a car audiophile site! In the real world maybe 1 out of 1000 car audio guys will go as far as some of us here will, the rest, they do not need, understand, desire, etc..... such extreme measures

Ensolite is more than enough for them but not quite enough for the few of us here that are into this the way we are

In the end, it is not the product, it is the dedication to figuring out and completing whatever it takes to achieve your goals and using whatever you have to use.

My current goal is building a 02 Z06 to weigh no more than 2,750lbs, have 600WHP and go as fast as I can around road race tracks and tow nicely behind my Tundra that will be exceptionally well deadened, have a great sound system and get me to the races in style and comfort. I just wish my business would slow up the growth rate a bit so I could work on the car more, just designed the roll cage and now I need the time to build it!

Rick

P.S.
At least part of Anthony's business is focused on the much more intense audiophile and he has some great products to take care of those into it I recommemd him to many that come to me for advice

 

thanks!!!!! awesome.

 

i'm not on a mission to make the car dead silent inside. i just wanna quiet it down as much as possible for maybe $250-300 or so. not looking to spend hundreds of hours or thousands of dollars. just wanna take care of some key places and lessen what noise i can on a budget.

 

i'm not on a mission to make the car dead silent inside. i just wanna quiet it down as much as possible for maybe $250-300 or so. not looking to spend hundreds of hours or thousands of dollars.

You can easily do that with either Rick or Ant's products.

Just hit the problem areas. I'd say order 3x as much deadener as closed cell. No scienctific equation... just a rudementary estimation. I'm sure if you gave either of those guys your budget and gave them an idea of what you wanted they would gladly take care of you.

 

tell me about sticking... i removed one old bitumen mat last night and have a couple of very minor creases in the door skin to show for it OK, you can't see them if you're not looking, but still.

I was personally planning on a couple of sheets (18" x 24") per door, a cut-up camping mat inside (on the wet part) and then some cotton-fluff-cloth (no idea what it's called) on the inside behind the door cards. Some more of this fluffy stuff in the roof on top of the internal headliner, Noxudol on the roof itself and in the rear quarter panels. Then more eggcrate in the rear panels, a couple of sheets on the trunk floor and some more closed-cell underneath the new trunk floor. I'll try and save 2 sheets per wheelarch inside.

The way I see it: the butyl-based product stops the vibration, the fluff stops vibration that starts from moving. I've also just picked up a couple of cheap fleece plaids from Ikea, they may go in for testing. They're thin and should fit nicely directly behind the trim. every little bit helps...

I think 2 days is pushing it, unless they're damn long and you start Friday night. Do you already know how to remove the trim? If not, I'd seriously consider "practice" - that way, you'll also find out beforehand that you're missing important tools.

Bret

 

rockondon[/B];365878]My last project [vibe] used similar amounts. With good results.
My newest. Iv only done the front doors so far ,using ensolite as suggested. And feel it helps more than just mat. But i also used the dirrections about fully closing off the holes. Which i did'nt know before. So that could also be the difference.
Rick's Raamat is great. For price/performance. And the dirrections i mentioned.

suggestion.road.noise

read architectural material on:
+sound damping
+scenarios/cases
+methods
+walls insulation

from the above you'll gain that protection from road noise can be affect by the smallest factor. cracks!

example

say you have 132in. of cracks lengths at the door. each 1/16in. wide.

132x(1/16)=8.25in.

8.25in./4=2.063in.

results

that's like having a [ ] 2.063in x 2.063in hole to the outside.

conclusion

if you've deadend the hell out of your door, you still have a 2.1in. x 2.1in. hole in your door letting outside noise in...
you can build a highly insulated wall in architecture with windows, doors, etc.
if those additions involve cracks, you've shot the efficiency of the walls acoustic damping atleast 50% . . . wasted money

mass is one factor to sound absorbtion, air to the outside is another. among other factors.

additional.notes

tcguy85[/B];365956]i'm not on a mission to make the car dead silent inside. i just wanna quiet it down as much as possible for maybe $250-300 or so. not looking to spend hundreds of hours or thousands of dollars. just wanna take care of some key places and lessen what noise i can on a budget.

cover up them holes sir! apply something on both sides of the holes to create an air space, sound trap space.
architects do that between rooms that share a bathroom.
you can't hear the other room, but when you go in the space between them, you can hear both rooms clearly.

every product has it use, in this case ensolite is useless.

-fixtion

 

suggestion.road.noise

read architectural material on:
+sound damping
+scenarios/cases
+methods
+walls insulation

from the above you'll gain that protection from road noise can be affect by the smallest factor. cracks!

example

say you have 132in. of cracks lengths at the door. each 1/16in. wide.

132x(1/16)=8.25in.

8.25in./4=2.063in.

results

that's like having a [ ] 2.063in x 2.063in hole to the outside.

conclusion

if you've deadend the hell out of your door, you still have a 2.1in. x 2.1in. hole in your door letting outside noise in...
you can build a highly insulated wall in architecture with windows, doors, etc.
if those additions involve cracks, you've shot the efficiency of the walls acoustic damping atleast 50% . . . wasted money

mass is one factor to sound absorbtion, air to the outside is another. among other factors.

additional.notes



cover up them holes sir! apply something on both sides of the holes to create an air space, sound trap space.
architects do that between rooms that share a bathroom.
you can't hear the other room, but when you go in the space between them, you can hear both rooms clearly.

every product has it use, in this case ensolite is useless.

-fixtion

but the cracks at the windows are generally baffled, at least a little bit, so it's going to have less impact on things than leaving the access holes open, even if you were just to leave a hole open that is the same size as you've calculated for some big ass doors.

Using a double layer with air space system to close the access holes may be better than not, but I'm not sure how that does anything about the cracks at the windows problems. Building design offers some opportunities that aren't going to be possible in a car and at some point you need to accept some compromises between the ideal and reality.

1/8" closed cell foam is useless as a barrier the same way shoe boxes are useless as bricks - not meant to do that. That's actually less true for the foam than it is for the shoe boxes, but neither is ideal.

In every case that I can think of, you want to start with a vibration damper. If you allow the body panels to become excited (strange image, I know) anything else will be less effective.

If you are trying to block noise, particularly from a direct source - engine, exhaust, etc. you will want to use a barrier. This means a very dense, continuous layer that is held away from the substrate by a layer f foam so that vibrations are not transmitted from one to the other. Open celled foam is better for this under ideal conditions, but again, car use doesn't always qualify. If it might be wet, closed cell is an appropriate compromise. If it will be compressed, by your feet on the floor as an example, a more resilient closed cell foam is probably going to be better.

That high density layer can be anything, but is usually lead or mass loaded vinyl, which is just vinyl with some heavy minerals embedded to make it more dense. Lead is hard to find and MLV isn't. It is also possible to roll your own using foam and sound deadener. Two layers of sound deadener on top of a single layer of foam is very close in density and thickness to MLV. You'll have to figure out how it compares in cost. One layer of deadener on top of a layer of foam will be a less effective, less expensive option.

Whatever material you choose for this, a barrier needs to completely block the source of the noise. Picture the heat shield on the space shuttle. Anything less will be a compromise but may still do what you need.

I always suggest at least one layer of closed cell foam over vibration damper if you aren't going to be using a barrier. It's light and inexpensive. It has a slight barrier effect and reduces reflections - some of the most annoying noise in a car is the result of high frequenci9es bouncing around. It also creates less open airspace inside trim panels. It's fantastic for gasketing all sorts of things to reduce rattles and filling small voids. It's all about using the right tool for the job. Oh yeah, it makes the carpet extra nice and squishy.

 

Now that my car is getting more silent, new noises are catching my attention. When I can work up the courage I'm going to tear into one of the side airbag compartments to find some little noisy piece that is annoying the hell out of me.

Doesn't that suck? I'm tearing my hair out trying to figure out how to kill this window noise from the window corners. couldn't hear it before all this stuff.

 

This may not be what you are talking about but it helps for wind noise.

The rubber trim around the door frames get worn sometimes. A easy fix it to install some silicone/ rubber tubing inside of them so they will not crush as easy. It makes it as if they are new again. We diesel truck owners on another forum do it and it makes a huge difference in wind noise. We use 3/8in but you may need smaller.

 

I found ensolite was best used as an isollator or gasket to quiet the noise of two panels, cables, things in general rattling against each other. Other than that, it only works in the upper high frequencies

You need to do some research on different products and how they are used. Study NRC ratings, STC ratings (they are not the same BTW). Google it.

You've got options now:

-absorbers
-blockers/barriers
-deadeners

You have to figure out what you need and why.

Cascade has some amazing products as I can see-much better looking results IMO, but you will pay for it.
Foxpro5 and 6spdcoupe carries cascade and Foxpro5 also has his Vertex barrier pad.
Second Skin has many products as well and Rick at Raamat has streamlined his product line for the basics.

 

When I can work up the courage I'm going to tear into one of the side airbag compartments to find some little noisy piece that is annoying the hell out of me.

I did this last year. I had some plastic hosing inside the rear airbag area causing rattles from both sides. I was a nervous wreck pulling the panels off, but now it's not a big deal at all. One swift hit of the hammer on the SRS logo and it pulls right off. As a precaution I disconnect the battery for a few minutes though. I've heard that helps to disable all that stuff. Dunno if it's true, but I'd hate to find out the hard way.

 

There are many tricks to making a car quiet, the silicone replacement for gaskets is great. I normally just remove the stock gaskets, install some double sided foam glazing tape and reinstall the gaskets, looks clean, does the job and stays put. Glazing tape will hold huge windows in place when properly applied, cool stuff really

--------------------

Here is what I have done in high heat areas.

On horizontal surfaces I use a layer of mat then a layer of foam, then go back and add a layer of mat on top of the foam but only in the specific areas needed like along the route of the exhaust (most do not need it but some vehicles certainly do) and sometimes on the transmission tunnel. Then I add a second layer of foam over that, mat/foam/mat/foam, incredibly effective! I worked this out in my buddies F350 with all the Banks goodies, well over 800ft lbs of torque, it would cook your feet in the passenger seat and the AC could not keep the truck cool, once done, forgot it was ever hot, really

On the roof of a project car, CF roof, did not need deadening but needed thermal protection and to be none reflective, I used one layer of foam, one layer of aluminum foil and another layer of the foam, very very effective yet barely any weight. This was a national class autocross, time trial and audio comp car all in one.

------------------

I prefer to target specific problem areas and take them to the level they need to be instead of the shotgun approach and go nuts everywhere(very often ending up with far more than needed in many areas and sometimes not as effectively done in many others

I have used ALLOT of materials in some situations, like having dual midbasses and 600 watts per door in my old Tacoma, 3 layers of mat all over, 5 layers on 2/3, 7 layers on less than 1/3, thickest near the speakers of course. Even then I used the most where it needed it the most and the least where I could do so and still be effective. (I also used 1/8" aluminum channels secured to the inside of inner door metal and very strong baffles as well as perf aluminum over the access holes, etc........)

----------------------

Another little trick, easy, fast, effective.

Use a dab of silicone sealer on all door pops, where they connect to the door and where they connect to the panel, not allot, they will still come off but they will never rattle. I use that technique all over the car, not just doors, and a small bead on overlapping panels, have the edge of a panel that can vibrate against the metal? I run tiny bead of silicone and wipe it to a concave shape(been doing this for 30+ years, learned it from a great cabinet maker so I am very clean at it) It will meld the two surfaces together to look much nicer and does the job well.

----------------------

I always have foam tape, silicone, tie wraps, etc, right by me when deadening a vehicle

Rick

 

Many just do not want to take the time to add layers of products, etc, cool, buy some of Ant's great ones ready to install, I most highly support doing so!

Rick