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Why the love for high distortion drivers?

19K views 143 replies 46 participants last post by  Cruzer  
#1 ·
I was wondering why the big love for high distortion drivers such as Dynaudio, HAT, and Morel mids, Ribbon tweeters, Maggies, etc. At least based off Zaph's testing of some of these speakers. I know everyone says let your ears decide, but why do our ears (some anyway) prefer distorted speakers?

It has been some time since I have heard 3-way Dynaudio setup but to tell the truth the last time I did I was completely underwhelmed. The car was professionally tuned by a well respected shop. I can say the same for a buddy of mine's 3-way Morel setup (not professionally tuned). I actually preferred his previous Boston speakers.

All that being said I wished I had never sold my set of Morel 3-ways with the dome mid. I thought they sounded very good in testing them, especially with the mid off-axis.

I am as guilty as anyone in this regard since I have planar dynamic home speakers. They are more akin to BG speakers than true ribbons though, and I am not sure how much distortion they actually have, but i would suspect it is much higher than a convential dome tweeter.

I don't want to start a flame war with the Morel and Dynaudio enthusiasts. Although I do want to hear what makes these speakers special in their opinion. I am searching for a logical explanation.
 
#6 ·
It's quite simple, cool name, high price, must be good, has to be better than some el cheapo speakers.

Hearing is a learned thing. If you play a musical instrument, you'll know what I'm talking about. Ever since I've been in this game, if you pay more for it, it has to sound better, if it looks cooler, it has to sound better.

Some one a few days back asked what should they look for in a speaker, simple question and a complete lack of response. Why, because no one knows???

I find it funny that some one will draw down on the specs for an amp, but drop twice the money on speakers without any real world spec on them. All the T/S parameters tell you is low level response. The most importamt part of your system and you can't even get a distortion chart on them???

The manufacturers have the data for all kinds of things, but if they published it, they would loose sales.

I have tested some of the "golden girls" of speakers and for the most part they do not perform any where near their cost. But that plays right into the same thing as the manufacturers of home speakers. They drop $150 worth of raw drivers into them, give them a pretty box and charge you mega bucks for them. But they sure do look pretty and they have a name that sounds like they should be the best.
 
#8 ·
Why not ask the manufacturer?? To explain the phenomenon? I really think it has to do with "EGO", bragging rights, you name it they (the manufacturers) know. They definitely have the buyer psychological profile down pat.
Most of us don't have a trained ear.. So my 2 cents is because they sound good to me and that is what really matters, not numbers, not specs... but how well do they sound to you. It would be a great test, to offer a top line speaker, in a Jensen box and let people test them and see what they think. Then give them the same speaker in the Morel or DynAudio box and lets hear what they have to say..
I bet you some will swear by that topline brand and bad mouth the supposedly Jensen speaker. Its in their heads.......
 
#11 ·
I disagree, distortion is distortion. Our sound field can be made better, but it takes work, time and analyzing the whys.

To say our listening enviroment can't be made to be that of a home is to admit defeat before we start.

All the testing does is give us a better start and handle on what we enjoy. I would never purchase equipment based on what some one would say is good enough.
 
#10 ·
To Big Red's point Zaph did not test the HAT drivers. npdang did a test of the Legatia 3 versus the Trius.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/2974-legatia-3-vs-trius-3-a.html

npdang quote below:

It's very easy to see that the Trius has significantly lower non-linear distortion than the Legatia. Second and third order distortion were generally at least -15db lower, and fourth order and higher products much lower as well. The tests were taken at about 96dbspl @1m. A fairly difficult level for such small drivers to produce full range.

Response from Scott Buwalda
Rob:

I couldn't agree more. We have had great success using our Legatia's into the 140 Hz region. And despite the distortion on paper, the focussed imaging and staging provided from one set of drivers far outweighs potential pitfalls. All of the fundamental vocal cues through one pair of drivers really can't be beat...

Scott
 
#14 ·
Dryseals, thanks for the post.

I have prided myself as understanding how a speaker works and reading specs…that said, I know I am still learning…

I admit, I do not know anything about distortion charts, how to interpret the chart or data, or anything about them.



I understand to a lesser degree about speaker distortion in guitar amp speakers, the huge differences in speakers there, same amp and cab completely different tone with a speaker change, such as an old vintage Jensen distorts a great deal, cone break up…and all… is great for blues tones, a vintage jbl can be way clean and great for country tones, or cleaner tones…

I would think my car stereo should be as clean as I can get it….and then from there deal with Psychoacoustics.

I sure would like to know more about speaker distortion and chart reading.
 
#15 ·
Legatia 3 versus the Trius. [url said:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/2974-legatia-3-vs-trius-3-a.html[/url]

npdang quote below:

It's very easy to see that the Trius has significantly lower non-linear distortion than the Legatia. Second and third order distortion were generally at least -15db lower, and fourth order and higher products much lower as well. The tests were taken at about 96dbspl @1m. A fairly difficult level for such small drivers to produce full range.
Since both drivers were tested at 96db / full range, I would ask if cone area would be a factor? The Sd of the Trius is 36.32cm^2 and the Legatia L3 is 27.33cm^2. The smaller cone would have to play with higher excursion then the larger one in order to reach the 96db mark right?
 
#19 ·
I've heard the term "clinical" used to describe some speakers (well, headphones actually). As far as I could tell the term means that the speaker was "too accurate", removing the fun or joy of listening to anything on them. So then does such a derogatory term imply that there is distortion that we find enjoyable or that music can be distorted in a good way?

Maybe high-end speakers have simply managed to distort our audio in a good way...? :shrug:
 
#21 · (Edited)
that defines Psychoacoustics I would say, nice second order harmonics, or any type of boost button, and the way humans hear things...

a system that is pretty darn flat f/R wise, once I heard it was a complete suprise to me....

I would not want my cars speakers to sound as flat as my nearfeilds,
anymore than I would want to bounce tracks or master with a tube amp...
diffrent tools for diffrent jobs...

I still would like to know more about reading these charts ....and if they mesure second and thrird order harmonics in any way?

edit: I see they do? not sure how I missed that,
 
#20 · (Edited)
I am an owner of dynaudio mw162, audio & telecomunincations engineer, and sound enthusiast for the last 15 years.

I don´t want to defend any driver I don´t like. I only look for the highest sound quality for my car, and I always try to critizice the equipment I buy, regardless its cost. I have thrown away DLS Nobelium, and other supposed Hi End systems.

My dynaudio driver, is the best sounding, cristal clear midbass driver I have ever had. For sure, it has flaws. One of them is its capability to play midrange sound (500 Hz and upper). He plays it loud (like subwoofers do with 100-200 Hz freqs), but he has not enough acceleration capabilities to play them as cristal clear sounding, real, sharp, as a smaller driver would do. But it happens to all woofers. Some of them are sharp higher, others are lower. but all of them are not as good for midrange as the real sound has to be.

For bass and midbass, these mw162 are incredible, amazing. The sound is extremely controlled, clean and quiet. You can ear the silence between transients. For sure there are better midwoofers. But, let´s don´t say these drivers are liked by us because the high distortion results obtained by somebody.


What I can say is, why are you giving so much importance to these distorsion results?

Even supposed those distorsion measures are taken in perfect conditions and following a right procedure (I can´t say anything about the proc because I haven´t read how these people do it. Al leats one sign of it is well done, would be everybody who does the test, get the same figures and results... but I am afraid sometimes not...), even supposed these distortion measures are accepted, why are they the only thing to evaluate the sound quality of the speaker? Is this a new fashion?

On the one hand, to get a good sounding speaker, a faithful transductor (Fidelity), there are much more things to take in consideration, to measure (not showed in the specifications sheets the manufacturers give to us), but needed to design, to create a loudspeaker.

On the other hand, is not possible to evaluate distorsion results just by the plot or figures. Is needed to apply Psychoacoustics to know which distortion has more final effect to the ear. For sure a speaker with 0 distortion is a perfect speaker (regarding distortion, what doesn´t mean it is perfect at other "skills" a speaker must have), but a speaker with "4" distortion is not better than other with "7" (just to say invented simple quantities), we have to evauate it psychoacoustically. You can get a speaker with very low distortion, but the characteristics of the remaining distortion can be more harmful (because the brain´s interpretation of the sound = psychoacoustics)

I wanted to say my opinion. I sometimes read your forum from here, from Spain. Sometimes looks like this distortion measurements are a new fashion at DIY to evaluate a loudspeaker, but a speaker has a lot of other important specifications to predict its actual behaviour.

This is the best DIY car audio forum I have found. Congratulations for your creation.

Best Regards from Spain
 
#26 · (Edited)
Hi less,

To take advantage of your big experience with different drivers, which tweeter is the deffinitive for you?

About the thread, I say that sound quality is measurable, of course. But these distortion measures are not the only ones to predict how a driver will sound! I reccomend you not to assume this, You have to know that the sound of a driver depends on more things! Not only distorsion! (Besides, there are some types of distortion). Is not that simple like people would like...

Dear less, I would appreciate if you say your favourite tweeter!
 
#27 ·
Distortion is what it is, and is defined.

Distortion can be pleasing, even order harmonics’ or not pleasing odd order harmonics,
, cone break up, hummm many things…
but that’s my the perception of sound, and that is also defined, as Psychoacoustics.


But Psychoacoustics do not change what distortion is, I just don’t understand you guys here…

Distortion: Anything that alters the musical signal. There are many forms of distortion, some of which are more audible than others. Distortion specs are often given for electronic equipment which are quite meaningless. As in all specifications, unless you have a thorough understanding of the whole situation, you will not be able to make conclusions about the sonic consequences

psychoacoustics n. (used with a sing. verb) The study of the perception of sound.
 
#29 ·
I appreciate all the well thought out responses. Obviously there are other factors than distortion when choosing speakers. Freq response, Impedence curves, TS parameters. Since we cannot all listen to every speaker we are interested in, we have to have some way of predicting their performance.

I agree finding a mentor to guide you is a good idea. But for some of us this forum fills the role of a mentor.

Yes there are significant challenges inherient in the auto environment. Perhaps the noise floor and reflections in a car renders speaker distortion insignificant. But that does not explain why these same high distortion speakers are just as popular for home use as in car audio.

As some others have postulated I wonder if some distortion is pleasing to the human ear and enhances the listening process.

Thanks again for your responses. I think I have learned something.
 
#30 ·
One thing I don't seem to have seen touched on (in so many words) is what I've heard referred to as "daddy syndrome."

Much like when people build they're own sub enclosure, and then say "Wow! I'm hearing things I never heard before. This must be better!"
Doesn't mean it's right. Just because you can hear something with brand X speakers you couldn't with Brand Y speakers, doesn't necessarily mean it's better in all circumstances.

As far as the car environment, it seems to me that competition cars are judged in as close a manner of a room in a house as possible. Car running at idle. Not driving down the freeway. Windows closed.

This is one of the reasons I can't see spending thousands on car speakers for a car I drive everyday. It seems to me that large changes in distortion precentages might not be audible at highway speeds, or in normal around-town driving.

Everyone has their opinions, and you aren't going to change people's minds on most things....it's like Chevy vs. Ford.

Personally, I think people put WAY to much emphasis on specs. Everyone hears differently, so I'd be more inclined to listen to a variety of speakers and see what I thought without looking at the specs.

I generally use the info I find here to get a good idea of the quality of something, and then listen to it for myself. I figure if the general consenus is that something is very good, then it is a good starting point.

It's easier to make good equipment sound good, then crap equipment.

Jay
 
#31 ·
In some ways I find this very funny, so many want to down play distortion in the speaker and I'm sure when they look at their amp, they want the smallest number possible.

So what do I look for when building a system? On the amp the same as you guys, got to have those top notch specs. But then why would I settle for not having the same in my speaker.

Distortion does come in many flavors from many sources, but in a sound reproduction device, I would consider distortion our enemy. Any alteration of the original signal is classified as distortion, correct? And in a sound quality forum, I would think that most would be tring to recreate that original sound in it's most purest form, nothing added or taken away. Non-linear distortion being extra freqs added to the original and linear being a deviation from flat.

If I were to come here and post that I think my factory speakers sound just great, I would have folks hammering me from every angle. But that's the stance you're asking me to take when you defend your speakers, the end result, wether the sound is appealing to you or not.

OK, lets say I take that position. But now I have to ask the why's.
Why care about time alignment. It's a big thing today, one of those little machines can set you back several hundred dollars. And then spend hours trying to set the speakers in a position to give us the best time alignment

Why care about eq levels, enough so that we buy equipment to adjust them and equipment to measure so we can set them? I know we all look at those eqs and say not enough bands, I need that 1/3 octave eq for my needs. The old bass and treble should do me just fine.

If I can't hear certian distortion, then why worry about the amp that produces it, mainly the sub woofer. Xmax is a number many want to toss out there, bigger is better right? But even the manufacturers know that when approaching Xmax, distortion can be well over 10%. But would any of you settle for an amp that advertized THD@50HZ of 10%., you'd chunk it in the trash. So what's the point of a high dollar amp that doesn't offer any more than an amp at half the price. Can you hear the difference? Most say they can, what's that term.... clean, Hmmm, clean, distortion free. So an amp that has .1% THD you can notice over one that has .001% but can't tell 10% in a speaker so I'm not to worry about it. I'm getting so confused.

I could go on for a long time about this, I've only had forty something years of listening to the logic in the audio world. Your ears can and will lie to you. You can chose to accept it for what it is or strive to make them more honest. The only way to make them more honest is to learn what it is you are listening for and correct that sound. How do you do that, take the time to really listen. I'm lucky, we have a house full of musical instruments, I consider the piano to be the best learning tool, I can't play it but the wife can. If I can tweak my system to reproduce the piano sound faithfully, then I know it's sounding very close to correct.

So I'm not going to accept a speaker that adds a fair amount of distortion into my system because it will "color" the sound. I like that term "color", the first time I ever heard it to describe a speaker, I got this image of a little kid with crayons creating his work of art on his moms wall. Kind of the way I feel about a speaker coloring the sound. His work of art looks great to him, but his mom is not going to feel the same way.

Bottom line is, we can measure the speaker performance and the manufacturer will give us some of that data, you wouldn't settle for a midbass driver that had a big slump in the spl curve at 100hz. So why should I settle for a speaker that has a high rate of distortion in that same area. You will hear it in some shape or form, the spl curve doesn't show it and you'll spend days trying to figure out were the problem is. You see these posts on a regular basis, my brand X driver does this, and a million responses to help them figure it out, but that's where the distortion measurements come into play. Driver X may have a nice flat looking curve, but the non-linear distortion may be very high in the area he's trying to use them and is changing what it is he wants to hear, for some, they like it, for others they won't.

But knowing where these numbers is the best way to start building a system. Too bad the manufacturers won't publish them but they do know that harmonic distortion in a lot of speakers gives them a nice sound quality that some folks enjoy. But put that piano player in the passenger seat and he'll have visions of a kid with crayons.
 
#32 ·
The only distortion you should be worrying about in speakers is non-linear distortion. Complex tones and music will mask a lot of distortion artifacts.

And if you are so worried about distortion, you shouldn't be using direct radiating cones/domes in the first place. Compression drivers have distortion levels that are on orders of magnitudes lower than cones/domes.
 
#33 ·
I will add to invoke discussion...

Quantify the testing procedure on anyone's third-party website. Is it both accurate and precise? (look up these definitions if you need to refresh your memory) The distortion testing on said third-party websites is almost always done without any crossovers, typically at an amplitude considerably higher than anyone would consider playing these drivers without a crossover, amongst several other variables not being adequately controlled. Example: a 27cm^2 diaphragm driver being played full range, with no baffle, in a non-studio or non-anechoic environment with undefined room modes, with the possibility of resonant modes, undefined power compression and room standards, with no microphone calibration procedure, at 96 dB full range.

Yes, I believe distortion will be manifested in this type of environment.

Speaker distortion is a misunderstood topic without first understanding the premise of the testing procedures employed.

Put a 3” or 4” driver, any driver, with a highpass at 250 Hz at 24 dB/octave and play it within its intended power band, and watch the distortion plummet to the point of making it virtually an irrelevant topic by comparison of any number of other, more important issues.

Use your ears. Combined with the brain and its library of sounds, the interaural system God gave us all is going to be the most refined testing equipment available to us.

Scott
 
#36 ·
What Scott says here is very much in line with my experience. When testing either speakers or amps at the edges of their performance envelope then distortion becomes a limiting factor. What is more important, is the amount of back-off required to achieve acceptable performance. We normally plot distortion (either total or 3rd order) as a function of back-off and we do this for families of frequency responses. Also measuring distortion with tones can be overly pessimistic as real world performance with a complex modulated signal often produces very different distortion outputs.
 
#34 ·
This is a very good thread on a number of levels and exposes us all to some different ways for us to look at things. I can't speak for everyone, but I surely do change my opinion on things at times when presented with a logical and compelling argument... its called learning and I hope most of you aren't so married to your opinons as JayinMI believes.

One of the points I was trying to make was that everything is relative and when asked to choose between distortion levels and some other factors, distortion in drivers might not be the most important stat. For an example, pick up the autosound 2000 test disc number five and listen to the distortion tracks where they start at .3% and goes to 30% then tell me of its importance compared to other important factors. You might be very surprised and be able to put this more into perspective. (Yes, I understand that this only demonstrates a single form of distortion and that others are more objectionable)

I also believe that we all have our own idea of what sounds good. I'll send a pm to the person who asked about my favorite drivers... but it is strictly my opinion based on my particular preferences, vehicle and installation.

Good discussion.

Less