[Niebur3]

Is your dealer set on charging you full retail?

Nope. When he is ready I’d be happy to give him my pricing.

 

[eltigre]

Nope. When he is ready I’d be happy to give him my pricing.

Roger that!

 

[ANS]

I don't disagree with you at all - provided we had imperial data to show they are the same amplifiers. For instance, a lot is being made about them looking identical, and using that as evidence. We'll, the specs are not the same. SNR is different, Fuse requirements is different, damping factor is different. If it was the same, why change the specs?

My skepticism isn't to defend Audiofrog necessarily, I've just never accepted conclusions based on how people "feel" about something. I like data. And it's missing.

Look at what happens with computer chip manufacturers and binning. They are literally the exact same components. But some pass certain thresholds, others don't. And the ones that do are sold as a different sku, with a steep upcharge to justify their bump in performance. Does that make them all the same even though they look the same? No. They perform differently.

It would be sweet if the AF amps were cheaper. And the value proposition is valid. But currently, no one can make the claim they are the same amps, at least not yet.

I'm sure eventually it will be tested though

I have used the Audiofrog amplifiers. They are very nice amplifiers and do what they are intended for. Personally, I prefer the kenwood excelon amplifiers when you look at physical size. I would rather take a loss in the wattage.

I don't take any specs from any amplifier manufacturer to heart. Most use differing testing methods. I test everything on my rig for comparisons.

 

[Jroo]

I don't disagree with you at all - provided we had imperial data to show they are the same amplifiers. For instance, a lot is being made about them looking identical, and using that as evidence. We'll, the specs are not the same. SNR is different, Fuse requirements is different, damping factor is different. If it was the same, why change the specs?

My skepticism isn't to defend Audiofrog necessarily, I've just never accepted conclusions based on how people "feel" about something. I like data. And it's missing.

Look at what happens with computer chip manufacturers and binning. They are literally the exact same components. But some pass certain thresholds, others don't. And the ones that do are sold as a different sku, with a steep upcharge to justify their bump in performance. Does that make them all the same even though they look the same? No. They perform differently.

It would be sweet if the AF amps were cheaper. And the value proposition is valid. But currently, no one can make the claim they are the same amps, at least not yet.

I'm sure eventually it will be tested though

This topic has popped up here and online in a few other sources. What I was left with was several people that are smarter than me on car audio and been in this car audio game on much deeper levels said, pretty much the same amp. Almost all admitted they could have slight tweaks but for the most part, same. I also remember how that thread you referenced blew up, which also told me something.
On to the real world question. Would I personally pay the AF tax over an Emphaser if considering those amps. For me it would be a no.
I also know some people place different values on things they purchase. This discussion just reminds me of the TV purchase we made a few years back. I went to a place and intended on buying a brand. The owner said, I want you to take a look at this brand(never heard the name) and I was hesitant. In a nutshell, said this brand is "pretty much" make side by side to the brand you are looking at. When he said pretty much, we talked. He was clear, they are not a identically match but I would never notice the internal changes between the two. Huge difference in price so I took a flyer and trusted what he said. 7 years trouble free years later, TV has worked flawlessly. Was the other brand worth the 3 or 4 dollar name brand tax, wasnt to me. The owner of the place also would have never been able to provide specific data to prove what he was saying.

AF is well within their right to charge what ever they feel is correct for their product. I dont knock that at all. I just think in this case the other amp walks and talks like a duck close enough to be a duck. Eventually, I think someone will buy both amps and do head to head testing and deconstruct to see. I have a sneaky suspicion that if and when that happens, the outcome will be what we think.

Also want to be clear, this is no slam on the brand. I would run AF GB speakers in a minute

 

[Kazie]

I have used the Audiofrog amplifiers. They are very nice amplifiers and do what they are intended for. Personally, I prefer the kenwood excelon amplifiers when you look at physical size. I would rather take a loss in the wattage.

I don't take any specs from any amplifier manufacturer to heart. Most use differing testing methods. I test everything on my rig for comparisons.

This is valid. At the end of the day, preferences should be respected (at least when it comes to audio ), and depending on the use, what the excelon amplifiers put out is more than enough. This whole thing actually started with me upgrading my Excelon KFC-XP6903c speakers (which are an excellent value and sound great when tuned imo) on my challenger. Got the GS25s - liked them so much while tuning, that the end result motivated me to get the GS690s. In the future I do want to make more upgrades to my other equipment, which led me to all this amp stuff. I genuinely hope you are able to get a hold of the B2 / Emphaser amps so you can do a deep dive. We all benefit from information and testing.

This topic has popped up here and online in a few other sources. What I was left with was several people that are smarter than me on car audio and been in this car audio game on much deeper levels said, pretty much the same amp. Almost all admitted they could have slight tweaks but for the most part, same. I also remember how that thread you referenced blew up, which also told me something.
On to the real world question. Would I personally pay the AF tax over an Emphaser if considering those amps. For me it would be a no.
I also know some people place different values on things they purchase. This discussion just reminds me of the TV purchase we made a few years back. I went to a place and intended on buying a brand. The owner said, I want you to take a look at this brand(never heard the name) and I was hesitant. In a nutshell, said this brand is "pretty much" make side by side to the brand you are looking at. When he said pretty much, we talked. He was clear, they are not a identically match but I would never notice the internal changes between the two. Huge difference in price so I took a flyer and trusted what he said. 7 years trouble free years later, TV has worked flawlessly. Was the other brand worth the 3 or 4 dollar name brand tax, wasn't to me. The owner of the place also would have never been able to provide specific data to prove what he was saying.

AF is well within their right to charge what ever they feel is correct for their product. I don't knock that at all. I just think in this case the other amp walks and talks like a duck close enough to be a duck. Eventually, I think someone will buy both amps and do head to head testing and deconstruct to see. I have a sneaky suspicion that if and when that happens, the outcome will be what we think.

Also want to be clear, this is no slam on the brand. I would run AF GB speakers in a minute

Totally with you here. My house is "google-ey", not by purpose design, but because my OCD loves themes. I do web design for a living so I annoy myself because of this. My car right now is a split of AF - once I install the 6 x 9s, JL amps and DSP and the Kicker Gold 12 sub which just came out (....which is surprisingly good btw). So yeah, my OCD is poking me in the eye, wanting to plan future cohesion with all the components in my car. How I decide to spend will ultimately come down to what makes me most happy personally, balanced by a certain expectation of performance from the things I buy.

Are the current AF amps the "best" in terms of cost per watt of amplitude? Objectively, no, if that is all that was being measured. But thats why we are having this discussion. Thankfully it has not gone south like the other thread did.

The AF amps are on my list because currently I have a certain level of trust in the brand to deliver "x" amount of quality. As much as people like to **** on JL Audio, I've had nothing but positive experiences with their equipment, so I don't get sticker shock from them either. Honestly, the only thing that has surprised me recently from a brand, was the Kicker Gold Sub of all things .

 

[Andre2142]

This intrigues me due to the overall uncommon design the of amp's PCB thus not everyone is making them, probably just one manufacturer. I would love to find differences but unfortunately apart from physical comparison under a close eye, i don't have an "amp dyno" to measure power performance just oscilloscopes and meters.

 

[Jroo]

This topic has popped up here and online in a few other sources. What I was left with was several people that are smarter than me on car audio and been in this car audio game on much deeper levels said, pretty much the same amp. Almost all admitted they could have slight tweaks but for the most part, same. I also remember how that thread you referenced blew up, which also told me something.
On to the real world question. Would I personally pay the AF tax over an Emphaser if considering those amps. For me it would be a no.
I also know some people place different values on things they purchase. This discussion just reminds me of the TV purchase we made a few years back. I went to a place and intended on buying a brand. The owner said, I want you to take a look at this brand(never heard the name) and I was hesitant. In a nutshell, said this brand is "pretty much" make side by side to the brand you are looking at. When he said pretty much, we talked. He was clear, they are not a identically match but I would never notice the internal changes between the two. Huge difference in price so I took a flyer and trusted what he said. 7 years trouble free years later, TV has worked flawlessly. Was the other brand worth the 3 or 4 dollar name brand tax, wasnt to me. The owner of the place also would have never been able to provide specific data to prove what he was saying.

AF is well within their right to charge what ever they feel is correct for their product. I dont knock that at all. I just think in this case the other amp walks and talks like a duck close enough to be a duck. Eventually, I think someone will buy both amps and do head to head testing and deconstruct to see. I have a sneaky suspicion that if and when that happens, the outcome will be what we think.

This is valid. At the end of the day, preferences should be respected (at least when it comes to audio ), and depending on the use, what the excelon amplifiers put out is more than enough. This whole thing actually started with me upgrading my Excelon KFC-XP6903c speakers (which are an excellent value and sound great when tuned imo) on my challenger. Got the GS25s - liked them so much while tuning, that the end result motivated me to get the GS690s. In the future I do want to make more upgrades to my other equipment, which led me to all this amp stuff. I genuinely hope you are able to get a hold of the B2 / Emphaser amps so you can do a deep dive. We all benefit from information and testing.



Totally with you here. My house is "google-ey", not by purpose design, but because my OCD loves themes. I do web design for a living so I annoy myself because of this. My car right now is a split of AF - once I install the 6 x 9s, JL amps and DSP and the Kicker Gold 12 sub which just came out (....which is surprisingly good btw). So yeah, my OCD is poking me in the eye, wanting to plan future cohesion with all the components in my car. How I decide to spend will ultimately come down to what makes me most happy personally, balanced by a certain expectation of performance from the things I buy.

Are the current AF amps the "best" in terms of cost per watt of amplitude? Objectively, no, if that is all that was being measured. But thats why we are having this discussion. Thankfully it has not gone south like the other thread did.

The AF amps are on my list because currently I have a certain level of trust in the brand to deliver "x" amount of quality. As much as people like to **** on JL Audio, I've had nothing but positive experiences with their equipment, so I don't get sticker shock from them either. Honestly, the only thing that has surprised me recently from a brand, was the Kicker Gold Sub of all things .

I agree everyone sees value in different ways. I just look at it this way. For instance, they offer a 100 X 4 class D amp. I dont think they are introducing anything different in terms of tech or features or sound quality compared to any other class D amp. We could look at offered specs and see if anything stand outs. I personally then look at something like length of warranty. If all those things are basically the same, they I have to say am I paying for a badge vs other equipment offerings.

 

[eltigre]

What are dealers actually selling the Frogs for? How much difference are we really looking at in price, not just MSRP? Of course a dealer network marketing/branding approach will have a higher msrp vs online sales, they also bring some real world advantages to the buyer. Anybody have any examples of what the pirate models bring second hand vs. the legit AF amps?

Products with a solid dealer networks are much more administratively and logistically taxing. Making and keeping the relationships with dealers, securing and monitoring territories, providing sales aids and training for your network. These things eat time, cost money and require significant outlay for quality employees. They also protect the brand, feed the industry and keep the value of your new product in place for resale.

I really think that these factors could close the gap to a fairly negligible difference. Plus, all AF has to do is some worthwhile improvements YOY and this whole concern floats on down the river.

 

[compressedplymouth]

Anyone picked up the B2 Mani 600.4 yet? I’m about to get one up here in Canada. I’m looking at upgrading my Kenwood Excelon XR-4S for highs/mids. I’ll leave the other bridged XR-4S for the midbass, because it has higher advertised headroom (300W), and if the highs and mids get better, well it’s a toss up about doing the midbass amp. I can justify going from older less efficient class D amps and getting some space and current back. Current MSRP $544.99, listing at $419.99 plus a 5% store wide discount. So let’s say $400+ tax of 13%. Shipping has a free option also for Canadians. so, that’s about as good as it will get unless you are already in America and can get it at your dollar value if $349/359 USD. Would cost almost double for Canadians to get it in and pairs for with all the extra fees.

 

[FlyingEagle]

$450.86 with discount and tax included. Free shipping. Let’s hope it’s in stock!
B2 Mani 600.4

 

[Andre2142]

So I convinced someone to buy one, betting it would be the same amp as the Emphaser can be had at $280 in Ebay and such.

First observations: Both amps are identical with very slight variations on the control covers/stand and both suffer from some QA imperfections. Additionally, there are some review videos of the AD amp and the reviewer says the amp can't be opened because the innards are basically fused to the body. In the contrary, these amps are very easy to open.

Well, you guys can be the judge of that, so let's compare...


First a quick comparison:
LEFT: Emphaser, RIGHT: Audiofrog

• Here you can see that both share the same physical layouts, right off the bat the AD amp has one imperfection: Manufacturing forgot to remove the plastic covers (blue) for the thermal pads.

Moving on...
A closeup of the Emphaser - Here we can see a bit more care was put into build, adding thermal paste and covering the power leads with tape to prevent a possible short

Now Audiofrog- it came like this

AD-Taking out the blue tape as it can prevent proper heat dissipation.

Emp - When I took apart the emphaser, I noticed right away that it had little remnants of solder metal left out when workers cut out the extra legs of components, I also noticed it had little "casting ears" left out that could potentially break off and cause shorts. Last pic here has all the casting metals scrapped off.

AD- the Audiofrog had also the casting remnants but thats it.

 

[Andre2142]

Lastly component comparison:
LEFT: Emphaser, RIGHT: Audiofrog

Thats all i have now, unfortunately i dont have an amp tester so I cant test acutal performance.

 

[Thomasluke7899]

Lastly component comparison:
LEFT: Emphaser, RIGHT: Audiofrog

View attachment 373526 View attachment 373525
View attachment 373527 View attachment 373528
View attachment 373529 View attachment 373530
View attachment 373531 View attachment 373532
View attachment 373533 View attachment 373534

Thats all i have now, unfortunately i dont have an amp tester so I cant test acutal performance.

Welp....

 

[Kazie]

I am glad you were able to get a hand on each. This does go hand in hand with the conversation I had with Andy about them. They should measure differently though. Not in output per say, but in everything else.

Now, if that were to be untrue, and there is literally no changes from board to board - then that would be dissapointing.

Hopefully they can be tested thoroughly so we know for sure and people stop speculating.

 

[Duramaxjon]

I am glad you were able to get a hand on each. This does go hand in hand with the conversation I had with Andy about them. They should measure differently though. Not in output per say, but in everything else.

Now, if that were to be untrue, and there is literally no changes from board to board - then that would be dissapointing.

Hopefully they can be tested thoroughly so we know for sure and people stop speculating.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t see how they could measure differently when every single component is the same?

 

[Kazie]

The best analogous example I can give you, is what happens with computer chip manufacturers.

You can have 2 exact same pieces of silicon, yet these chips are binned into different tiers once you put current through them and see how they clock. They can have different levels of performance. The same can hold true for a lot of electrical parts.

That said, I am in no way claiming this is what makes the AF board different. Not to that level of detail. What I was told is that there were tweaks (without specificity) made to the board to get the end result they wanted, thus making them different. But, in all fairness, that is a claim that can neither be proven or disproven until there are actual measurements being done.

Visually, they do look identical. The output may or may not be the same, and past that - a spec like damping or SNR could be different. And if they were to consistently be, within reason, that would prove one claim vs the other.

This honestly wouldn't be such a big deal if the amps didn't look like Carbon copies of one another 😅

 

[slowride]

The fact that they look the same to me signifies build houses. I’m not saying never because there may be a reason why I need a small micro amp. But as of now based on there photos I’m gonna continue to steer clear. And I understand the reasoning of binning may produce different results.

 

[metanium]

I’m a fan of Audiofrog (just look at my signature), but I seriously doubt there’s anything special or different about the Audiofrog over the Emphaser. I hope someone is able to bench both of these on an AudioPrecision and report their findings.

I do know that Audiofrog has proven to back their products with regards to warranty and Andy has provided more technical support and information on here, Facebook and elsewhere than possibly anyone in the industry. That is great assurance for past and prospective customers, and it should warrant a higher cost compared to products from a company that doesn’t offer those things. I like Andy’s information, insight and support. If those things are important to you, then support Audiofrog.

As far as Class D amps go, I’m sure these are both great performers (possibly the same).

 

[LBaudio]

to me - same ****, different package.
Regarding price difference - tax on stupidity

 

[Andre2142]

Considering the similarity of the components and build quality I believe the audible, performance, and lifespan differences will be a very small.

Some main differences to consider though would be Warranty and resale value. The AD will definitely hold its resale price overtime better (like a JL Audio) than the "no-name" Emphaser, similarly to a Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe, they are the same car but the Matrix can be sold at a higher asking price. Additionally, warranty will be better on the AD as well, the Emphaser did came with a "1 year limited warranty" card, but who knows how that process will go.

But at the end, I think if you want a decent amp that can do what you need for a couple of years, best bang for the buck would win.

Edit:
Oh yeah, if you get either amp, I recommend to clean those little metal shavings and protect the solder joints with some tape if not present.