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Crimps Vs. Solder

35K views 57 replies 14 participants last post by  DeltaB  
#1 ·
I know this is a dead horse topic But I thought I would share my experinces on this topic.

First, I am a licsensed Airframe and powerplant technician with a GROL cert. and I/A. Although I no longer am employed as an avitaion tech. I continue to volunteer for various charities who use aircraft for medical or animal resue missions.

I have even used my certs to trade for some dental work!

If you care to read these two standards, even a layperson will understand that soldering has more room for error and has much more stringent control measures.

NASA-STD-8739.4 Crimps

NASA-STD-8739.3 Solder

The main difference you will see from these two doc's is that soldering is preferred for SMD, cabling and interconnections is nearly 99% crimped. The main benefit from crimping is repeatability and there is less room for error.

The average solder joint performed by the same technician on the same wire and terminal is 20% variation in uniformity to the standard. Most tech's fail the cert. or re-cert testing for two main reasons, voids and wicking. We all know what voids are, they most critically affect power connections where heat is the primary source of failure. As current is pushed through the circuit, the circuit will heat up. Under normal conditions, the wire and terminals will not be adversely affected by "normal" operating temperatures. But if there is a significant void (all solder joints will have voids), you will create a point of resistance and without any significant increase in voltage to push through the resistance (which wouldn't be much better), the joint will heat up further. I will only get worse from there.

I know, I know, "I have been soldering for years without a return for repair". I was a solder guy for years....... mostly in my younger years.

What is wicking? Wicking up sucks! and most don't even know how to ID it.
-> Solving a Solder Wicking Problem

For us car audio guys wicking doesn't usually impact us right away, it is a stealthy and troublesome bastard.....Why? as the solder wicks up the cunductor beyond the intended length of the joint (up into the insulator, beyond where you stripped the insulation off), this wicked area is now as brittle as the solder joint. That wicked area couls protrude quite far from the secure joint position. You may think that the connection is solid and it is, too solid! That solid bit that is sticking out......one bend and now you have broken many of the fundamental connection the solder has made between the strands.

How many of us have done this........when tinning a wire, we get a nice flow of solder magically being absorbed by the wire? Oh this is a good tinning here we thought and we keep going! BAD! There is a way to minimize wicking, use a heat sink applied to the wire so the heat does do not travel up the conductor beyond where you want it too. We all have and use heat sinks when soldering don't we? We all have the correct heat sink right? a round one? for the right size conductor?

Full disclosure, I do use solder. I am a big fan of "pig tailed" connectors to my speakers. I lean towards the XT 60 style, but I am picky when it comes to the manufacturer. I also use them as service points, i.e. where I have ran wire in places that would be hard to reach if I had to re-run a new length. I use these less frequently than before as I have learned the time tested practice of leaving service lengths at each end of EVERY wire except grounds. I use them primarily because of cost, high quality crimp plugs can add up quickly and they are usually bulky and may not fit in tight spots. You may also find yourself where you need to re-pin/repair and then don't have or can't find your insertion or extraction tools. I like the deep cups on the XT's and makes soldering much easier. I also know that once the tinning has just covered the exposed area of the wire, to stop!


As for crimping, I have seen in this forum and several others some practices that we use to crimp..............I cringe at most of them. Hammer and pin vice....ugh! Cheapo ring or spade terminals Ugh!

Here are some crimper that absolutely refuse to use;
 

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#11 ·
Mmmmm, there was a reason I left the crimp topic as the second and much later in the day.

So just for those who did not entirely read those NASA standars. There are other standards as well MIL-STD, ANSI, ASE and CFR that I am aware of. NASA is the most stringent of all.
Anyone wanna show me where in any of these there is even a hint of soldering a crimped terminal?
 
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#13 ·
You carry a terminal press in your pocket? How many people reading this thread have a Etco or Neutrik press around in their home, or can even define the die used for the connector and wire gauge to be used? In manufacturing, using the type of terminal both you and I have shown, you should already know the tolerance is so close, that you cannot do it by hand. You're arguing from a position that defies logic.
 
#18 ·
Delta I am in way here to argue. If I offened you by asking why solder a crimp I am truly sorry. My goal with this thread is to educate those are unfamiliar or have limited exposure to one or the other. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, which I intend to expose to the forum..... from my experience. I am sure there will be folks who will also give me more knowledge than I already have.

The crimp/die combo's you speak of are in-fact extremely expnsive. And no, not practical to have about. BUT, the crimp/dies you speak of are not necessary to achieve a proper crimp, they are however, an absolute necessity in a PRODUCTION environment where tolerance and repeatability are required for tens of thousands of compressions.
 
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#20 · (Edited)
^^^ This guy! wink wink

I knew where Loco was going once he opened his comments. Spot on.

I have seen both done correctly and incorrectly, with respects to solder and crimps.

There aren't many joints except the engine bay or an exposed battery terminal connection where I have seen many solder back fills, in the cars that arrive at work. This encompasses just about any car you can poke a stick at. (Audi/VAG, Mazda/Ford, the big three, etc etc) In an exposed environment, they put in more effort, because otherwise you end up with no starts, phantom electrical issues as things start to "die" due to the electrical scenario of bad connections or increasing resistances. Interior cabin space seems to be a different scenario, and then you get lead down the rabbit hole of connectors and terminals and trying to figure out what is the proper replacement. It is a strange world that not many people can get on top of in the common repair industry, but in a specialized environment, more so works in the favor of the cust/repair person/shop involved. That said ...

It is near impossible to find a press kit that does terminals with proper standards of tension/grip and wire that is "exactly" matched in overall diameter, to the exact part you want to use to crimp/mold to it.

Is it not true to that solder joints on wiring are left out due to cracking with vibration being a key factor in that particular environment?

Anyways, with the correct crimp tool and properly sized wire, in capable hands, an interior use joint that won't see floor space (for you salty dogs), I would argue is more than adequate for the length of time 99% of electrical equipment is going to see use and or be installed for.

Find me good wire (hard to find), with an even better jacket (hard to find), proper crimp connectors that match up to the environment they are used in (harder to find!), that don't break the bank. OEM quality wiring is tough to find ... yes, the stuff that hasn't completely oxidized internally before you find out you have circuit issues a few years down the road.

Anywho, just wanted to drop in with a few words from a guy that likes to keep his ear to the ground.

Take this for what it is worth:

All the connections in the stereo system that came with a car I acquired back in 2005, were soldered and ends were tinned at speaker leads. Those connections are still going strong even with the equipment having been pulled and the wiring being used as test wires to hook up my P01 to a stand alone battery/audio test center. You can see the wire oxidizing in the jackets/jackets degrading before the joints have broken.

Every other system I have built or used (including home theater), isn't put together with crimp connectors or connectors of any kind where possible. Gold plated terminals and bare copper wire. Yes, it oxidizes and you shorten it every few years.
 
#28 ·
...
Find me good wire (hard to find), with an even better jacket (hard to find), proper crimp connectors that match up to the environment they are used in (harder to find!), that don't break the bank. OEM quality wiring is tough to find ... yes, the stuff that hasn't completely oxidized internally before you find out you have circuit issues a few years down the road.
...
I use Tefzel for all the small wires, and then into Duetch connectors.
(The crimping tool is not cheap)
This is mostly for non car audio stuff...

For the red/blue/yellow car stuff with spade connectors (in the 12-18 gauge range) I use a crimper for that.

For the RCAs I use neutric Profi and Mogami wire... these are soldered.

For the speakers I use the Nuetrik SpeakOn and the 4-core Magomi 3104 wire, and those have screw ferrules that grip the wire.
On the chassis side inside a speaker box, they use the yellow spade connectors.

For battery leads, I bring it to a shop as they have a crimper. That gives me a chance to look at stuff I would like to have but try to avoid.

Occasionally I solder groups of wires inside a ferrule, but I never feel easy about it.
 
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#21 ·
I would like to know if members can contribute a list of places to get really good connectors - not galvanized, or bare bones china box stuff at the local Harbor Freight/Princess auto, that will last quite some time without turning green, dark or other within a few short years.

It would be great to have a thread showing proper techniques (this thread) and another for great product (showing product names and pricing and who carries it most commonly), so that this becomes a full circle type of deal.

Everyone knows the stress of waiting until Saturday/Sunday or whatever day to start their project and run out of some connector and no place in town is open or you don't have any electrical repair shops with connectors worth a damn.

BOT
 
#24 ·
I would like to know if members can contribute a list of places to get really good connectors - not galvanized, or bare bones china box stuff at the local Harbor Freight/Princess auto, that will last quite some time without turning green, dark or other within a few short years.
Me too, me too! The best stuff I find is usually what comes with amp kits and speakers but sometimes they don't come with any.
 
#22 ·
Some of my practices would make y'all lose sleep at night but they work good enough MOST of the time:laugh:

But seriously, good thread and info Frank. I'm a fan of crimping myself even if I am somewhat of a caveman but am man enough to admit to being one;)
 
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#23 ·
An argument made based on vibration can affect solder joints is simply beyond the pale. Annealing causes wire failure due to movement, not solder. That's why one uses multi-strand as opposed to solid core for leads like network cabling for interconnects for example, and solid core plenum (solid core) is left for walls and ceilings where once run, the wires aren't subjected to movement.

You can argue crimped is better than soldering all you want, however, there is no more solid connection, both mechanically and electrically than soldered, except maybe exothermic. Is it always convenient? No. Does any single person here have a press and die, whether electrical or pneumatic to properly terminate crimped connectors? Doubt it. The argument is stupid, but car audio nuts have to be nuts somewhere I guess.
 
#25 ·
So far I have not said that one or the other is superior, I thought I was quite clear that I do both. And that there are disadvantages and advantages to both. I will leave it up to the individual to decide which is best for them.
 
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#27 ·
Well, I tried. I am not going to post any further information. I refuse to engage in any discussion where all information will not be considered. To the couple of members who have contacted me for information, PM and I will help you out. And to a cetain member who made a comment to me some time ago (as well as PM'd me last night), I got mad crimpers and cool ****, maybe trade goods for a quick tune at a GTG???

I get first access to used tooling from my company, all guaranteed to pass calibration!
 
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#31 ·
Excellent post. I'm sorry you're backing out of this post because some members have a **** way of communicating their opinion.

For every incorrectly crimped connector that I have seen out there, I have seen an incorrectly soldered one. Just like you say with crimping, the right tools are needed, soldering is the same way. A poor solder joint imo is worse than a poor crimp.

Anyway, thanks for the links. Saving them to read later.



Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
 
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#30 ·
Omg this is ****ing comical.. "here's some educational reading from NASA about why crimping is better"... "aRe YoU KidDiNg mE!? SolDeR iS fAR sUpeRioR!!"

Classic

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
 
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#36 ·
I crimp everything because I got big hands and a tight grip. lol.
I try soldering and I keep melting up the wire jacket, melting up the rca connectors, etc. It looks so much easier in the youtube videos. I'll practice some more. In the meantime, these will get the job done.
Image
 
#38 ·
I crimp everything because I got big hands and a tight grip. lol.
I try soldering and I keep melting up the wire jacket, melting up the rca connectors, etc. It looks so much easier in the youtube videos. I'll practice some more. In the meantime, these will get the job done.
I have the 100 watt (I think) Rat Shack iron with the rounded tip. Practice makes perfect when it comes to feathering that trigger. It's like using dull butcher knife in place of an exacto knife but gets the job done most of the time. Still prefer crimpers and the death grip though.
 
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#44 ·
I went to Pulaski Tech Aviation School back when it was by the North Little Rock Airport. The classes were taught by old mechanics who at one point had their own shop. Also learned that big gorilla arms and short stubby fingers will further complicate things.
 
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#46 ·
I get that. I've heard it all, I've seen it all. It's not that I don't appreciate Loco's efforts here, it's just that to properly terminate crimps, you need the proper tools. And depending on the connector, especially like those which have been represented here, (cheap automotive crimp-on) I doubt that anyone here has even seen, much less used, and certainly don't own the correct type of crimping equipment used to properly terminate pre-insulated ring/spade terminals. I've seen more improperly terminated connectors of this style than any other in my 4 decades around auto's and those who play with audio in the field. And that even goes for factory trained technicians. You have to have the right tools to do the right job.
 
#50 ·
Delta...

When you refer to all the poor crimps you've seen or identified, I doubt those individuals will solder any better. It's more likely that they'll purchase the right crimp tool than they are to practice their soldering skills. Even then, who's going to constructively critique those guys?

I highly doubt six sigma would ever identify soldering as a superior repeatable process.

This opinionated attitude you maintain really ruins a lot of discussion.

Image
 
#52 · (Edited)
Delta...

When you refer to all the poor crimps you've seen or identified, I doubt those individuals will solder any better. It's more likely that they'll purchase the right crimp tool than they are to practice their soldering skills. Even then, who's going to constructively critique those guys?

I highly doubt six sigma would ever identify soldering as a superior repeatable process.

This opinionated attitude you maintain really ruins a lot of discussion.
A discussion is what you make it. Ever ask yourself why wire is pre-tinned? (and not the pre-tinned end of cheap speaker wire dipped in a solder pot, but high quality wire from companies like Belden) Ever see crimped connectors pressed and crimped onto the board inside your amp not soldered? If I take the assertion here at face value, that many here are not professionals and don't have the proper crimping equipment, and utilize cheap connectors that even if crimped correctly have very low tensile strength, and can have the crimp compromised by a simple pulling on it, I would suggest you brush up on soldering skills. It will make a much more positive, both mechanically and electrically, secure connection.
 
#51 ·
The "school" was Sinclair community college in Dayton, OH back in the 80's.

Think of a stranded wire as a bundle of round toothpicks. Each toothpick represents a strand of wire. If you looked down the axis of the toothpicks you'd see that there was little strand to strand contact compared to the amount of space there is between the strands. When crimped properly these strands get compressed together so that there is much more surface to surface contact between the strands. This makes for a good mechanical connection between the strands. Since there is much more contact between the strands you have a better conductor. When you solder the wire the gaps between strands get filled in with solder. Solder is made up of lead and tin and when compared to copper is not as good a conductor. Conductivity is expressed as a relative measurement to copper. This is why silver is rated at 105% and copper at 100%. In comparison tin is only rated at 15% and lead at 7%.
 
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#53 ·
There seems to be a variety of good info here, on both sides of the topic. For myself, attaining the “proper” soldering skills, given my current and forecast occupation, is not likely to occur. It would seem much more attainable to secure appropriate crimping tools and skills, given the extremely limited frequency where I will need it.
 
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#56 ·
Wow. DeltaB, honestly, you should just give up.

Seriously, your arguments are terrible and self-contradicting. You've completely lost all credibility with the Chrysler thing. Seriously? 80's Chrysler is the standard by which you judge quality and reliability?
And someone is supposed to respect your opinion after that?

After reading through your other posts, I see a pattern of this same behavior. Don't bother responding, I won't see it once I hit the ignore button on you.

It's too bad locomotive tech had his thread derailed. Ha, get it... Derailed? 'Cause he's a locomotive tech... ya get it.
 
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